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Where are the deniers?


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Initial post: Dec 21, 2012 11:33:34 AM PST
King's Kid says:
The nazi Holocaust happened. Deniers try to say it didn't. However, I have posted at least twice that I have seen the death camps, ovens, etc. They then fall strangely silent. Are these yutzes actually saying that they've never seen the evidence? You don't even have to go to Germany or Poland to see them, go to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, or the one in Israel.

Posted on Dec 21, 2012 11:43:05 AM PST
King's Kid says:
As I suspected, their stupidity can't stand up to the truth.

Posted on Dec 21, 2012 2:11:41 PM PST
What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
By Barbara Kulaszka

In recent years, considerable attention has been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some Jewish community leaders have called for similar measures in North America. In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: [1]

"The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself."

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe - as Matas and many others insist - that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." [2]

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis did not make soap from the corpses of murdered Jews? After considering the evidence - including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets - the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." [3]

In 1990, though, Israel's official Yad Vashem Holocaust center "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. [4]

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong - and a "Holocaust denier" - because he declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." [5]

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews, that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews: the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter. But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised, three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. [6] As Holocaust historian Christopher Browning has noted: [7]

"In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the 'Final Solution' have been systematically excised. Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: 'Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended.' In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given."

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zündel. [8]

Auschwitz

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History: "...From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz , but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." [9]

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz - allegedly the main extermination center - are no longer clear cut. At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. [10] Until 1990, a memorial plaque at Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." [11]

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. [12] In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about 775,000 died there during the war years. [13]

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote: [14}

"... Many questions remain open ... All in all, how many bodies were cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims? How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to these questions at this time."

Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement: "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that "most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity." [15}

Höss Testimony

One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Höss, an SS officer who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to support its findings of extermination. [16]

It is now well established that Höss' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" - which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal - are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. [17] Höss' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement - which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law - Höss claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease. [18] Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. Höss was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations

In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers. Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. [19]

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been gas chambers. [20]

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities, where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study was carried out by German chemist Germar Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples, the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place ... The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were not suitable for this purpose..." [21]

There is also the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lüftl, a respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically impossible." [22]

Discredited Perspective

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who support criminal persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy evidence as the Höss testimony, some of its most critical findings are now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/denial.shtml

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 2:58:04 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 25, 2013 5:27:57 AM PST]

Posted on Dec 21, 2012 5:58:16 PM PST
No fair,you can bet after the fact.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 12:10:03 AM PST
\\His garbage doesn't matter, his pea sized brain is slowly seeping away into his Depends.

I won my own bet. :)\\

You're an atheist, right? So why do they let a self-hater like you on this forum?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 7:34:56 AM PST
King's Kid says:
It's been settled Looney LAD. If you don't believe me, believe the exhibits at the death camps. The museums have the history right, if you don't go and see the death camps and see where the massacres happened you'll never know how right they have it. Or stew in your own ignorance and remain one of the most vilified jerks on the fora.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 11:39:57 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 11:40:56 AM PST
A says:
Is this one of the two posts of yours that you're talking about?

`I can see rejecting evolution, it needs to be seen long term to understand it. There are holocaust survivors still alive, there are photographs and movies taken when the death camps were liberated, some of the death camps still stand so we'll never forget what happens when the world turns its back on a population. It's much more in your face, sort of like gunning children down.'

It looks like you're confused when you say `... photographs and movies taken when the death camps were liberated'. Because those `movies' weren't taken from the death camps.

There were six extermination centers, or `death camps,' where the mass killings by gassing are said to have taken place, and they were all in Poland and overrun by the Soviets; Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibbor, Treblinka, Auschwitz, and Majdanek.

The Destruction of the European Jews, Raul Hilberg, Chapter 9, Killing Center Operations

But the `movies' you're thinking of aren't from these death camps. They're from concentration camps on German soil. You're thinking of the gruesome newsreels of victims of disease and starvation - piles of bodies - from the camps that were liberated by the British and Americans on German soil, such as Bergen Belsen - and nobody disputes these war's end prisoner deaths.

There are, however, people - sometimes pejoratively and inaccurately referred to as `deniers' - who disagree with the standard history regarding the mass exterminations in gas chambers at the death camps in Poland. And, unlike you, they don't believe that footage of thousands of privation victims in camps on German soil is proof that millions were gassed in Poland.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 11:43:05 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 2:07:30 PM PST
A says:
`If you don't believe me, believe the exhibits at the death camps. The museums have the history right, if you don't go and see the death camps and see where the massacres happened you'll never know how right they have it.'

Where is this, Kings Kid? At Chemlo, Sobibbor, Belzec and Treblinka, the camps were dismantled and there are no gas chambers or other killing apparatus left to be seen. Facilities remain at Majdanek, but the generally accepted total there has plummeted to as low as 50,000, which is down from 1,380,000

The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945, Lucy Dawidowicz, page 149

and some scholars question whether it should still be considered a sixth killing center.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005145

Which leaves Auschwitz/Birkenau, but there isn't much to see there either. The main Krema at Birkenau were blown up and left in ruins. So the only `gas chamber' to be seen is the one at the Auschwitz main camp shown on the Auschwitz Museum tour - and it isn't an actual intact gas chamber, but rather a reconstruction.

Tens of thousands of tourists per year used to pass through this structure at Auschwitz believing that they were standing - oftentimes sobbing - in an actual, intact gas chamber, until Museum Director Dr. Piper finally admitted that it was a post-war reconstruction - with roof holes for Zyklon B insertion added, among other modifications - and that its last use had really been as an air raid shelter.

I would hope that this `gas chamber' isn't one of the `exhibit(s) at the death camps' that you found compelling

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 4:11:34 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
There's no anti-Jewish hate site that Dickerson the rabid Jew-hater doesn't love.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 4:13:08 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
A few quotations from the Muslim Jew-hater currently posting here:

Bookish wrote: Don't you have the same beliefs as Nazis, only with Jews as the master race?
http://www.amazon.com/forum/history/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx33HXI3XVZDC8G&cdMsgNo=2164&cdPage=87&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3AX8Z8GCWTJR&cdMsgID=Mx1B6KEXNW07JY3#Mx1B6KEXNW07JY3

Bookish: Judaism, as it's been changed to anyway, just wants to slaughter everyone else or make them pack animals or body part replacements.
http://www.amazon.com/forum/history/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx33HXI3XVZDC8G&cdMsgNo=5722&cdPage=229&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx29HI0UY7HY18T&cdMsgID=Mx1GBFRJ27DQAC9#Mx1GBFRJ27DQAC9

Bookish wrote: Jews are always killing Muslims. Maybe it's out of revenge for the Nazis.
http://www.amazon.com/forum/history/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx33HXI3XVZDC8G&cdMsgNo=6257&cdPage=251&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx29HI0UY7HY18T&cdMsgID=MxW08AXYTSW17L#MxW08AXYTSW17L

That, of course, is merely scratching the surface.

So why does a Muslim anti-Semite post night and day in the Judaism Forum? Inquiring minds want to know.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 4:13:38 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
More anti-Semitism recently posted in the Judaism Forum by Bookish the Muslim Jew-hater:

<They [i.e. the Jewish people] lost their inheritance, and no more prophets, except the gollums of their ugly words and deeds.>
http://www.amazon.com/forum/judaism/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg26?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3GH4KC0VK3SAS&cdPage=26&cdThread=Tx2AYXNVY8HG5KL

<Your people are now childish whiners that think they can get away with robbery and murder. You have no prophets; you are cut off.>

http://www.amazon.com/forum/judaism/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg27?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3GH4KC0VK3SAS&cdPage=27&cdThread=Tx2AYXNVY8HG5KL

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 4:14:15 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Another classic from the rabidly anti-Semitic Bookish:

<BOOKISH:
The protocols for wiping Palestine off the map is a multi-generational project with many secret deals, theft, murder, and oppression.

Who knows what else you folks plan for the world. Another weapon of mass destruction, or new economic instruments to bilk the poor goyim, would be a real feather in your cap.>

http://www.amazon.com/forum/judaism/ref=cm_cd_search_res_rm?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3GH4KC0VK3SAS&cdPage=349&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx1XDCR72TGPFN7#Mx2GMOHHD2L1TDE

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 6:01:29 PM PST
King's Kid says:
I visited the Dachau concentration camp the first of the Nazi death camps opened in Germany. There are the gas "showers", the ovens, the mass burial sites just like at all the other death camps. It happened in Germany and in other countries, not just Poland. So the deniers remain deniers and wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 6:03:39 PM PST
King's Kid says:
Nope, it was Dachau actually that I found the most moving and as you put it compelling. I was there first in 1962.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 7:12:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 7:14:49 PM PST
A says:
You're completely wrong.

Dachau wasn't a death camp. This description from the Wiesenthal Center represents the general convention on the death camps among holocaust historians:

"6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they located?

Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with special apparatus specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. All were located in Poland."

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663#6

This understanding of which camps were death camps is in agreement with Lucy Dawidowicz, Raul Hilberg, Yad Vashem, the USHMM, and pretty much the rest of the holocaust scholars.

Dachau was a concentration camp, mainly for political prisoners, most of whom were not Jewish. Holocaust historians generally estimate that about 30,000 people died there, mostly from disease and privation.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005214

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 7:17:44 PM PST
King's Kid says:
I saw, the ovens in Dachau. They were sized for humans. I am not wrong and I respectfully disagree with what you posted from the Wiesenthal Center. Have you seen them, any of them?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 2:54:35 AM PST
Balok says:
@A:

> Which leaves Auschwitz/Birkenau, but there isn't much to see there either. The main Krema at
> Birkenau were blown up and left in ruins. So the only `gas chamber' to be seen is the one at the
> Auschwitz main camp shown on the Auschwitz Museum tour - and it isn't an actual intact gas
> chamber, but rather a reconstruction.

The Nazis kept meticulous records of the number of people who were admitted to Auschwitz/Birkenau and the number of people who were evacuated therefrom. The difference between those two numbers is approximately 1,000,000. What is *your* explanation for where those 1,000,000 people went, and what evidence do you have to support that explanation?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 3:52:45 AM PST
King's Kid says:
~~Those are in the same place as the 59 folks on American Airlines Flight 77 that were "disappeared" so that a rocket could be could be crashed it into the Pentagon.~~ Along with Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley and JFK.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 5:33:02 AM PST
A says:
`I am not wrong and I respectfully disagree with what you posted from the Wiesenthal Center.'

OK. You disagree with the Wiesenthal Center, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, Lucy Dawidowicz, Raul Hilberg.... and even Wikipedia.

That would make you a revisionist.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 5:37:09 AM PST
A says:
"The Nazis kept meticulous records of the number of people who were admitted to Auschwitz/Birkenau and the number of people who were evacuated therefrom... "

That `meticulous records' business is a popular factoid, but according to Yad Vashem and others, there are no such meticulous records of admittees to Auschwitz/Brikenau.

From the Frequently Asked Questions section of the Yad Vashem website:

"Why the lack of clarity? Didn't the Nazis keep meticulous lists?

Actually, in most cases they didn't. ...the millions of Jews who were simply pushed off trains and into gas chambers, in most cases, were not listed."

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/resources/names/faq.asp

Which is in agreement with Franciscek Piper of the Auschwitz Museum:

"Franciszek Piper, head of the Historical Research Department and author of the book How Many People Died in Auschwitz, estimates that slightly over 900,000 people were exterminated immediately after arrival, without being registered."

http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=8

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 5:51:42 AM PST
A says:
'I saw, the ovens in Dachau. They were sized for humans.'

No kidding? A lot of places have cremation ovens for cremating the dead, and they're all sized for humans.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 12:50:03 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 25, 2013 5:28:00 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 3:21:26 PM PST
King's Kid says:
A says:

'I saw, the ovens in Dachau. They were sized for humans.'

No kidding? A lot of places have cremation ovens for cremating the dead, and they're all sized for humans.

KK says: Sure and all crematoria are surrounded by housing for the future clients; with barbed wire enclosing the campus. (Because people are dying to get in.)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 10:05:52 PM PST
Balok says:
@A:

> That `meticulous records' business is a popular factoid, but according to Yad Vashem and others,
> there are no such meticulous records of admittees to Auschwitz/Brikenau.

What you write only strengthens my arguments.
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