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Nested collections?


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Showing 51-75 of 102 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 10:10:49 AM PDT
What your looking at is a DIAG (DIrected Acyclic Graph) there are a good set of algorithms deal with them.

Posted on Apr 14, 2012 11:50:22 AM PDT
I think it would be too hard to define a good UI for Vincent's model on a 6-inch Kindle screen (at a reasonable font size), and it would be too confusing for the average user.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 12:53:16 PM PDT
Vincent M. says:
Susan,

Same UI, different navigation model. since collection within collection would be the paradigm, click on collection to go to a deeper level. press back to back out. You're obvious advantage is drilling down to a managable subset of media.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 1:27:02 PM PDT
basically, use the same interface as on the current one, except allowing collections to contain collections, subject to the constraint that collections can't form loops of collections, I.E. if collection A has B as a sub-collection, then B can't contain A as a sub-collection etc. All current collection are maintained, those users that don't need higher level of need never use it. Also, the current collection model is a DIAG ( a very simple one) so we are just extending it.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 1:32:31 PM PDT
Vincent M. says:
Yeah, just block a collection from being added if that collection (or any collection it contains) contains the collection you're adding to.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 2:57:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 3:00:06 PM PDT
Dragi Raos says:
I said I would spare the audience for the rest of the day, but...

I propose the following: leave everything concerning collections as it is (collections being just unstructured tags), except for one thing: when you open a collection, list within it all other collections mentioned in books in the first one; as you descend into another collection, display "breadcrumbs" at the top of the screen.

So, back to my example; says I have the following collections:

Genre: Mystery/Suspense, SF&F, Romance, Historical Fiction, History, Literary Criticism, Art, Travelogue, Cookbook, Other Reference...
Form: Novel, Short, Essays, Monograph...
Author/Publisher: TradPub, Indie, SelfPub
Status: TBR, Reading, Done, Could'nt Finish
Rating: ...

Let's consider just genre, form and status. All collections would be displayed on the home screen. When I open SF&F, I would see books tagged with only that collection, and probably something like "Short", "Novel", "TBR", "Reading", "Done" etc. Opening "Short" would display "TBR", "Reading" and "Done" ("SF&F" is already on the breadcrumb trail so won't be displayed again, and no books are labeled both "Novel" and "Short"). Opening "TBR" would finally display a list of SF&F short stories and story collections yet to be read.

Instead of SF&F->Short->TBR, I could reach the same books labeled the same way in some other order, say TBR->SF&F->Short.

Ummmm, yes, I like this.

Posted on Apr 15, 2012 2:00:49 PM PDT
Vincent M. says:
I vote we just force them to put a wizzard in each kindle to read our minds and display what we want it to display after they read our minds.

Ummmm, yes, I like this!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 11:31:14 PM PDT
Dragi Raos says:
Does that mean that you spot some impracticality with my proposal that I missed? Pray, share it! Or perhaps I was just not clear enough?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 11:41:42 PM PDT
JJulieJ says:
If I'm following your example correctly, Dragi, your home pages would be very cluttered with the "breadcrumbs" of all the collections. Personally I wouldn't like that, although I like the concept of having different types of collection tags on a book as you have described.

Hmmm, maybe only have one collection showing on the homepage called "Collections", in other words a super-collection that you click on to see all the breadcrumb collections. Then the Home page would be simplified.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 16, 2012 12:10:16 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 16, 2012 12:12:44 AM PDT
Dragi Raos says:
It seems I have not been clear.

If you return to my example above, I have my books labeled with one (or perhaps more) genre collections (tags), perhaps one for form, and one for reading status (there could be more, of course). Home page would look exactly as it does now. When I open, say, "SF&F" collection, it would look exactly as home page, except that only books "collected" as "SF&F" would be shown, along with any additional collection they might belong to. That is, other collections mentioned in books tagged with "SF&F" would be shown first, followed by books with no other tags. If I drill down to one of those collections (say, "Short"), only books tagged as both "SF&F" and "Short" would be shown. Some of them would also be tagged "TBR", and some others "Done", both those collections would be listed. If I drill down further to "TBR", I would see books tagged with all three collections in my "breadcrumb trail". Presumably, if I don't use author, series or rating collections, only books themselves would be left to display.

That's equivalent to searching for one collection, then narrowing the result set to intersection of that collection and some other etc.

"Breadcrumbs" would only track path taken from the home page. So, when "SF&F" is chosen from the home page, it would display "SF&F". Drill-down to ""Short" would display "SF&F->Short", meaning we are seeing books tagged with both of those. And so on.

I home I made myself slightly clearer now.

What do you think?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 16, 2012 12:41:11 AM PDT
JJulieJ says:
Hmmm, think you may have misunderstood me.

Using your example the Home page would look a bit like this (collections have c after them):
Mystery/Suspense c
SF&F c
Romance c
Historical Fiction c
History c
Literary Criticism c
Art c
Travelogue c
Cookbook c
Other Reference c
Novel c
Short c
Essays c
Monograph c
TradPub c
Indie c
SelfPub c
TBR c
Reading c
Done c
Couldn't Finish c
Dictionary 1
Book that isn't in a collection 1
Book that isn't in a collection 2
Dictionary 2
and so on

then if you drill down to say SF&F you'd see eg
Novel c
Short c
TradPub c
Indie c
SelfPub c
TBR c
Reading c
Done c
Couldn't Finish c
SF&F book 1 no other collections
SF&F book 2 no other collections
SF&F book 3 no other collections
and so on

What I'm saying is that I'd like the Home page to be:
Collections c
Dictionary 1
Book that isn't in a collection 1
Book that isn't in a collection 2
Dictionary 2
and so on

And under Collections I'd see:
Mystery/Suspense c
SF&F c
Romance c
Historical Fiction c
History c
Literary Criticism c
Art c
Travelogue c
Cookbook c
Other Reference c
Novel c
Short c
Essays c
Monograph c
TradPub c
Indie c
SelfPub c
TBR c
Reading c
Done c
Couldn't Finish c

And then as per your examples.

I'd just like to see the Home page less cluttered so wouldn't mind an extra step for Collections.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 16, 2012 1:34:33 AM PDT
Dragi Raos says:
Aha, I see. OK, so the difference would be that collections are moved from the home page to "collections" page. Works for me - I would probably just "homestead" on Collections page. It could be one of home page display options.

My main point is to be able to easily see books tagged with C1 and C2 and C7..., while leaving the present mechanism of tagging intact (it is unrealistic to expect major overhaul; addition to UI perhaps could be begged out of Amazon (o: ) I would still use "collection alphabetical sorting" trick to have collections in stable order, with those I consider "main" at the top (of course, explicit ordering mechanism would be even better...).

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 16, 2012 2:35:32 AM PDT
JJulieJ says:
Yes, that's it.

Then when new books are downloaded onto your Kindle you don't have to page past zillions of collections to access the books, assuming you sort by collections that is. The other options would be even messier I think.

Posted on Nov 9, 2012 11:11:05 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Nov 9, 2012 11:24:21 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 9, 2012 11:25:38 AM PST
As a software developer who has written "folder-like" software for a "flat-file" database, the code is extremely simple. It would not require a major overhaul of the operating code.

The Kindle obviously uses a flat-file database where the collections are a single table, and the "book" table would have a foreign key to the collection table. To convert the collections from a label to a folder, just add a parent-child table which would contain the key value of the collection.

The point is, the ability to convert collections to folders would involve relatively little code and would not take up much space in the existing database. The coding is fairly easy, and the additional compiled code wouldn't take up much space.

It is difficult to understand why (because the effort and size impacts would be so minimal) this simple feature has not been implemented.

Posted on Nov 9, 2012 12:59:19 PM PST
I think the problem isn't the code, its the fact that amazon has decided not to improve or extend the interface, they most likely paid a firm to write the code, and don't have a contract to extend it. Most of the development effort lately has been to create apps for Android and Iphone.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 3:26:42 AM PST
Dragi Raos says:
Collections to book relationship is n-m, not 1-n - books can be in many collections, as they should. While hierarchical collections are, obviously, doable and arguably useful, the main shortcoming of the present arrangement is that this n-m relationship is not fully useful: when looking into one collection, one does not see at a glance to which other collections the books there belong.

Tags/labels are incomparably more useful and easier to maintain and navigate than folders - ask anyone maintaining any multifaceted taxonomy. The main problem on devices with limited GIU and extremely broad audience like e-ink Kindles is how to construct simple, effective and intuitive (*really* intuitive, not intuitive for heavy computer users) interface, while not dumbing it down too much.

BTW, collection data was held in version 2-4 on device software in a Jason file.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 3:27:17 AM PST
Dragi Raos says:
Have you looked at, say, 5.3 firmware?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 3:47:24 AM PST
CBRetriever says:
actually if you select a book and click the add/remove from collection option for it, you can see what collections it belongs to, but it's not an at a glance thing

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 3:52:09 AM PST
Dragi Raos says:
Exactly. If I am in a mood for, say, indie scifi shorts, seeing collections like labels on Gmail would help, as would search by collections.

Posted on Nov 10, 2012 11:11:36 AM PST
One of the things I would most like to see is collections carried across all devices and on the amazon cloud in a consistent manner. When you have several hundred books, trying to find the one book you want to download, is time consuming. As I've said before if you allow tags to refer to both books and tags. The interface would be identical to the current one, with the only change being able to add tags to tags.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 11:13:54 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 10, 2012 11:19:07 AM PST
Dragi Raos says:
I agree. Some of that capability already exists: collections from one device can be imported into another, and at least K4PC allows "collecting" archived books. But the handling is not consistent, to the point of Fire line not supporting collections at all.

I probably missed your "tagging the tag" idea - I like it, but it does not replace "to what other collection these books belong" Gmail-like feature I would like to see.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 11:21:24 AM PST
CBRetriever says:
carrying it across all devices in multiple user/multiple kindle households could present a problem as one persons horror collection is another person's Stephen King collection - we already argue about sorting vinyl records for record shows as to whether John Prine should be country, rock or folk - I'd hate to have to go through the same discussions on books

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 11:28:48 AM PST
Dragi Raos says:
I don't need family for such discussions when tagging my music - I suffice myself. Indie, alternative, singer-songwriter? Pop-rock or plain pop? Folk, protest? Progressive, symphonic or metal? Is Tomita electronic or classical?

That's why tags are vastly superior to folders.

Obviously, cloud-tagging should be (optionally) personal, too.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2012 12:43:38 PM PST
A family that uses the same amazon account, can setup their own namespaces, Dad, Mom....., if we had tags of tags as discussed above. actually, this would be a good way of introducing, the concept to naive users.
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Discussion in:  Kindle forum
Participants:  25
Total posts:  102
Initial post:  Jun 17, 2010
Latest post:  Jul 23, 2014

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