Customer Discussions > Music forum

Who's better Genesis w/ Peter Gabriel or Phil Collins

Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 51-75 of 85 posts in this discussion
Posted on Feb 14, 2012 11:58:52 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2012 11:59:52 AM PST
@venussansfurs: yeah, some songs on Gabriel's debut like "Moribund The Burgermeister" and "Humdrum" sound very continuous with "The Lamb". On other songs like "Excuse Me" or "Waiting For The Big One" he's trying to get away from the Genesis sound, but overall it's a strong effort and one of his best.

Gabriel was their best songwriter but clearly all five members had gobs of talent, and "Trick" proved that they *could* make very good music on their own when rising to the challenge of his absence. They just didn't really want to after "Wind" IMO! LOL. Speaking of which, Hackett's departure really was the more severe artistic loss; outside of his incredible guitar work and his tendency to stay on the prog side of things, he was my second favorite songwriter of the group, based on "Entangled", "Blood On The Rooftops" and "Inside And Out" alone. It's a real shame he was sidelined by Banks on "Wind" and decided to leave as a result. As much as Banks was primary in shaping their classic prog sound and wrote some outstanding music during the group's 70s prime, he's as much to blame (or more) as Collins for the direction they took starting with "...And Then There Were Three". Even his keyboard sounds turned from majestic to cheezy-peezy.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2012 12:11:10 PM PST
I wouldn't say Hackett's departure was a greater artistic loss than Gabriel's, but yeah, without Hackett they really lost any sort of Prog influence they had before. Not saying that Rutherford wasn't a decent guitar player (of course he's a MUCH better bassist), but he's definitely no Hackett!! And without Hackett, their direction took a turn for the worse (at least for Prog fans).

Posted on Feb 14, 2012 4:22:02 PM PST
@venussansfurs: well, that's what I meant by "bigger loss", in the sense that the band's direction changed more drastically after Hackett left than after Gabriel left. I wouldn't have minded more albums like "Trick" and "Wind", even if they weren't quite up to par with the Gabriel-era material.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2012 4:32:13 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2012 4:33:38 PM PST
Yeah, point taken...though I think they were headed in that direction already. I mean, what's with all that silly stuff with Phil dancing on the piano in this vid?? This is closer to pop to me than anything they did previously with Pete, though it's still a decent song:

Posted on Feb 14, 2012 4:43:41 PM PST
@venussansfurs: I don't know if the title track to "Trick" is any more or less pop than "I Know What I Like", but it *is* sillier and it is an indication that Gabriel's songwriting was missed. That's one of the weakest tracks on the album, though; I think "Mad Man Moon" and "Entangled" are good lyrics. But I do not dispute that something was already lost when Gabriel left. It's just that I see the left turn to cheeze *really* accelerating after Hackett left. A scant few things on "Duke" ("Duchess", "Duke's Travels") are the last time I get any sense of "realness" or artistic integrity from the band. The lyrics to "Duchess" say it all, really!

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2012 4:56:25 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2012 5:51:20 PM PST
I know, I know, it's an extreme, perhaps even unfair example, but I had to point out that the cheese factor was there even before Hackett left. I think he kept it in check though, because as you said, it accelerated all the more after he was gone. I think "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)" is really more of a Rock song than a Pop song - it grooves, has a beat, etc., all the things that Rock n' Roll should be, but in contrast, that title track on 'Trick' is much more lightweight pop-style to me than anything they did with Gabe. But to each his own, so I'll shut up about it. Haha.

Posted on Feb 15, 2012 10:35:48 PM PST
Okay I will rank 4 albums by Genesis from 1973-1977
Selling England by the Pound 4/5
Lamb Lies Down on Broadway 4/5
Trick of the Tail 5/5
Wind and Wuthering 4/5

I think they are all great albums I just think Trick of the Tail is the masterpiece. I really don't think he was trying to sound like Peter and if he was he did a better job of it than Peter himself. Just a personal preference. I like Phil's singing better on Trick and Wind. I know I am in a small group but again it is my preference. Just like in the Led Zeppelin forum people found it unbelievable that I liked House of the Holy, Physical Grafitti and Presence more that I-V...again my personal taste and preference.

Posted on Feb 15, 2012 10:48:04 PM PST
Hinch says:
I was never a big fan of Genesis, but I'd say Peter Gabriel.

Posted on Feb 15, 2012 11:05:33 PM PST
D. Morrison says:
Love the Peter Gabriel era.

Posted on Feb 16, 2012 5:35:19 AM PST
Tough choice, they truly were (2) different bands even when it was Phil at the helm. Look at "Trick of the Tail" concert footage vs. "We Can't Dance" concert footage, and you see such an evolution. Comparing just those two era, I prefer the 1976-1980 era. But to answer the narrow scope of the main question, I much prefer the Gabriel years for the sheer mystery, experimentation, creative energy, and theatrical presentation of what must be considered the best music of their career.

Posted on Feb 16, 2012 5:48:18 AM PST
Dennis D. says:
No Contest at all. Peter Gabriel.

Posted on Feb 16, 2012 7:45:39 AM PST
D. Young says:
Phil Collins for me.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 17, 2012 1:35:09 PM PST
Smallcat says:
Phil. Maybe because I heard about him first, I don't know.

Posted on Feb 17, 2012 1:57:03 PM PST
Lee Cushing says:
Gabriel >>>>>>> Collins. Out of Genesis w/ Gabriel, Genesis w/ Collins, Collins solo and Gabriel solo I really prefer Gabriel solo (up through the "So" album) more than any other permutation. At least that's the material I find myself listening to anymore.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 17, 2012 3:10:06 PM PST
I listen to my solo Peter Gabriel stuff more than Genesis myself. Like I said before, he's one of my fave artists whose work peaked after he left his old band. Those first six albums of his are all great (I like 'Us', the one that came after 'So' too) and there are not many musicians I can point to that have six great albums in a row.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 17, 2012 6:39:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 17, 2012 6:41:09 PM PST
Dw 1000 says:
Genesis without Peter Gabriel is like Pink Floyd without Roger Waters.

Ya its the same group but in name only....

Posted on Feb 17, 2012 7:55:27 PM PST
Music Hound says:
To listen to the Gabriel - era Genesis is to listen to one of the premier progressive rock bands of all time. Thick, dense, mysterious, foreboding. Sometimes it can even be a bit frightening. This band (okay actually Gabriel himself) would bring theatrics to their stage along with the sometimes ancient themes their songs were comprised of. When I first heard recordings like "Foxtrot" and "Nursery Crime", I was startled at the band. "Supper's Ready" - geez - what a trip. I'm still in awe of this earlier period and still have come across nothing that equals it, in my opinion. It's great stuff. Phil Collins' drumming during this period was of such high caliber. I don't know how he and Banks could coordinate some of the intricate rhythm switches that they planned on those earlier ventures, and still keep the songs together. Damn good stuff, even to this day.

Collins' transitional period and final conversion to more of a pop outfit brought the band to the forefront that the earlier Genesis would not have been able to achieve, due to the denseness of the work, which, aside from a handful of tracks, really could not be radio-friendly. Also, Collins and Banks could work up a unifying power for the group's music that really forced the listener to pay attention.

For me, both periods are great, but since I have to pick one, I go with Gabriel's period with Genesis for the imaginative artistry that I have never heard from any group before or since their time.

Posted on Feb 17, 2012 9:51:16 PM PST
@venussansfurs: for me, it's tough to choose between the best Gabriel-era Genesis (esp "Selling England" and "The Lamb", but also most of "Foxtrot") and Gabriel's best solo work (for me his best album is "Security", with "Up" as my second favorite, but I like all of his albums excepting "Scratch My Back"). It's all "A" grade material, even if it sounds different (heck, 70/71 Genesis sounds different from 74 Genesis, and 77/78 Gabriel sounds different from 92 was a constant evolution where he never sat on his laurels from one album to the next).

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 7:22:19 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 18, 2012 7:32:50 AM PST
You like 'Up' that much? To me, that's when he started going on that morose direction of his that permeates a lot of his later work. It's an interesting album though, totally unlike the 80s stuff. I wish he'd come back with something I can get into, but with 'Scratch My Back' and 'New Blood', he seems to be running out of ideas, unfortunately.

Those three you mentioned are my fave Genesis albums as well. I don't think all of 'Foxtrot' is brilliant, but with "Watcher of the Skies" and "Supper's Ready", you have a classic Prog work that is tough to beat. Overall, I'd say my fave is 'Selling' - brilliant from beginning to end. And 'Lamb' is one of the best concept efforts ever.

You're so right...Gabe never sat on his laurels, each release (except for the recent ones) evolved and broke new ground. That is such a rarity and I have nothing but admiration for the guy as a musician.

Posted on Nov 6, 2012 11:59:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 7, 2012 12:00:25 AM PST
In a very good documentary about Genesis Phil Collins was quoted as saying: "The core of the band's sound is Tony Banks as his writing and playing IS Genesis."
To answer this question without the creative force of Peter Gabriel in this band in the 1970's we would not be talking about Genesis at all in 2012.
And without the mega-hits produced under the Phil Collins led Genesis of the 1980's they would be trying to borrow money from you in 2012.
Tony, Mike, Steve, Ant, Phil & Peter are all equal parts of something greater and you cannot slight the merits of any of these artists.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 7, 2012 4:59:07 AM PST
Very good summation Music Hound. I prefer the Peter Gabriel led Genesis even from the first album to Lamb. Their debut with the help of Jonathon King was very melodic and very 'twee' but showed the immense talent of the young band members. Trespass was a big development and the band showed the confidence of playing some live shows in the music. Love Stagnation, Dusk, and White Mountain. The Knife is a killer finish but IMHO a little overrated. Gabriel was aiming for something akin to Rhondo by The Nice. Then they churned out Nursey Cryme, Foxtrot, SEBTP and Lamb. All were examples of the best of early 70's prog rock. Brilliant albums, love the record covers, the dramatic changes in mood. Many of the songs from those LP's are keepers. So many bands of that era IMHO couldn't construct lengthy songs without wretched keyboard excesses or banal repetition. I am thinking of bands like Argent and at times ELP. Genesis didn't fall into those traps. Think, the musical box, fountain of salamacis, can utility and the coastliners, cinema show, the cage, carpet crawlers, battle of epping forest, the list goes on. I, also like many others here, enjoy the two post gabriel, Hacket albums 'Trick' and 'Wind'. Phil Collins sang better back then in my view. His voice was not as 'tinny'. The vocals on entangled and ripples are really good. Post Hackett and onto ATTWT, and Duke. I don't share the animosity towards the move to a pop flavour. I like those two albums from'78 and '80 respectively. I prefer the songs on those LP's to 'Abacab' I do like Me and Sarah Jane from Abacab. From the self titled album, side one is top notch despite its unashamed commercial slant. Side two is a bit patchy for me. By Invisible Touch, Genesis was a fully realised, stadium filling, commercial money machine (if they weren't already!) There are a couple of non singles on IT like the last domino and the brazilian that are good tracks. I can't connect at all with the last two albums (ie including the calling all stations Collinsless LP). So overall, I vote for the creative genius of Gabriel over the commercial success of Collins for want of a better way of putting it but truly respect Phil's contributions to the band as a drummer/vocalist in the progressive era to '75 and as the vocalist and part songwriter from the Trick of the Tail album onwards.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 7, 2012 12:12:19 PM PST
1. Selling England By The Pound
2. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
3. A Trick of The Tail
4. Foxtrot

It has to do with the quality of the songs. Peter Gabriel being the singer also gave Phil Collins the ability to focus all of his talent on the drumming. Steve Hackett was also a very important factor in how good the recordings were. After Peter left, Steve was put on the back burner. I like a few of the most clever later songs, such as "Domino / In the Glow of the Night", "Misunderstanding", and even "No Son Of Mine" but for the most part find that Collins' increasing power in the band dumbed it down.

Really, I mean we are talking about a guy who had a hit song called "Sussussudio." Something clearly went wrong in the 80's.

Posted on Nov 7, 2012 12:52:45 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 7, 2012 1:18:18 PM PST
tmoore says:
Here's my history with the band.

Started listening to radio on my own in 1976-77.
First heard of Genesis when they entered the Top 40 for first time in 1978 with "Follow You Follow Me".
Heard "Misunderstanding" on the radio in 1980 and liked that song a lot.
Then, around 1982, a priest played "No Reply At All" at a CCD assembly I attended, to make a point about communication. Liked that song a lot also. Had also heard "Abacab" and "Man On the Corner" the previous year.
On day of Challenger explosion (1/28/86), I bought the then-recent Genesis albums (through self-titled one) and the then-recent Phil Collins albums (through No Jacket Required) because I frankly couldn't figure out which songs were Genesis and which ones were Phil solo. They all sounded the same to me. Listening to them helped me sort out which was which.
Bought Invisible Touch on day of release in summer 1986 and was extremely disappointed by it. Was really turned off by the strange sounds in "Tonight Tonight Tonight" and it went downhill from there. Of course, the songs were all over the radio for the next year.
Around that time, I hooked up with a college study group which introduced me to "Trick Of the Tail", "Wind and Wuthering", "Lamb", and Peter Gabriel solo.

So I really learned of Genesis first through their pop successes with Phil. Didn't formally buy the Hackett-era Genesis albums until early '90s. So we're talking about 15 years of exposure before I really understood the whole story.

I will say that as lacking as the early '80s Genesis material is when compared with their earlier material --- when that early '80s material was new, I thought it generally was among the better things I was hearing on pop radio. And I generally liked pop radio until about 1983 --- after that it got too canned (too many synthesizers for my taste). Much later I figured out that the best material from that time wasn't being played on the radio stations I was listening to, but I was blind to that fact as it was happening.

I think the "Selling England..." through "Wind and Wuthering" period is superb. I have all their albums but listen to the aforementioned bunch the most. Before and after those albums timewise, I only listen to selected tracks - with the notable exception that I also spin the "From Genesis to Revelation" album relatively frequently - I like the arrangements on that album.

I guess I most prefer the Hackett era which covers all of Peter's time and the early part of Phil's time (as lead vocalist).

Posted on Nov 8, 2012 4:20:50 AM PST
Geezerguy says:
Both had their merits, but I'll listen to Lamb Lies Down over Abacab any day.

Posted on Nov 8, 2012 8:45:28 AM PST
S. Stalcup says:
I regarded them as two different bands. Still do. So I will give Bob Dole's "Boxers or briefs?" answer: Depends.
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in


This discussion

Discussion in:  Music forum
Participants:  40
Total posts:  85
Initial post:  Jul 30, 2011
Latest post:  May 26, 2013

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 2 customers

Search Customer Discussions