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Just Music....Period

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Posted on Jan 24, 2010 3:34:30 PM PST
Oh, you're of coures right AP.. but I just can't help it sometimes. you got to let me 'let it out some'.. Lol ..

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 3:37:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 24, 2010 3:41:48 PM PST
Butterfly says:

re: Coincidence or not, it was pretty much around the time that he left us that Chicago's sound took a significant turn towards the mundane.

I have to agree with you, I remember thinking what happened to their sound. Even though I continued to listen to their music, I listened with my ears only, when Kath was with them I listened with my heart and soul, we know there's a difference.

One of my all time favorite guitar intros has to be "Beginnings". What do you think of it?

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 3:46:04 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Remember this?

Chicago Transit Authority - "Poem 58" [Studio Version]

What about this one?

Chicago Transit Authority - "South California Purples" [Studio Version]

Listen to this! ;-)

Chicago Transit Authority - "Listen" [Studio Version]

Man, was this great!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 5:20:54 PM PST
Hey Bitter

How the Red Sox doing ? Lol

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:36:13 PM PST
Butterfly says:

The Loudness Wars: Why Music Sounds Worse

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:37:39 PM PST
now, what is that?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 5:42:25 PM PST
Butterfly says:

Follow the link it will explain a very interesting issue. If you don't want to here's a printed version.

December 31, 2009 - As we come to the end of the decade, we turn to one of the more dramatic changes we've heard in music over those 10 years: It seems to have gotten louder.

We're talking about compression here, the dynamic compression that's used a lot in popular music. There's actually another kind of compression going on today - one that allows us to carry hundreds of songs in our iPods. More on that in a minute.

But first, host Robert Siegel talked to Bob Ludwig, a record mastering engineer. For more than 40 years, he's been the final ear in the audio chain for albums running from Jimi Hendrix to Radiohead, from Tony Bennett to Kronos Quartet.

Bob pointed to a YouTube video titled The Loudness War. The video uses Paul McCartney's 1989 song "Figure of Eight" as an example, comparing its original recording with what a modern engineer might do with it.

"It really no longer sounds like a snare drum with a very sharp attack," Ludwig says. "It sounds more like somebody padding on a piece of leather or something like that," Ludwig says. He's referring to the practice of using compressors to squash the music, making the quiet parts louder and the loud parts a little quieter, so it jumps out of your radio or iPod.

Ludwig says the "Loudness War" came to a head last year with the release of Metallica's album Death Magnetic.

"It came out simultaneously to the fans as [a version on] Guitar Hero and the final CD," Ludwig says. "And the Guitar Hero doesn't have all the digital domain compression that the CD had. So the fans were able to hear what it could have been before this compression."

According to Ludwig, 10,000 or more fans signed an online petition to get the band to remix the record.

"That record is so loud that there is an outfit in Europe called ITU [International Telecommunication Union] that now has standardization measurements for long-term loudness," he says. "And that Metallica record is one of the loudest records ever produced."

Old News

"The 'Loudness Wars' have gone back to the days of 45s," Ludwig says. "When I first got into the business and was doing a lot of vinyl disc cutting, one producer after another just wanted to have his 45 sound louder than the next guy's so that when the program director at the Top 40 radio station was going through his stack of 45s to decide which two or three he was going to add that week, that the record would kind of jump out to the program director, aurally at least."

That's still a motivation for some producers. If their record jumps out of your iPod compared with the song that preceded it, then they've accomplished their goal.

Bob Ludwig thinks that's an unfortunate development.

"People talk about downloads hurting record sales," Ludwig says. "I and some other people would submit that another thing that is hurting record sales these days is the fact that they are so compressed that the ear just gets tired of it. When you're through listening to a whole album of this highly compressed music, your ear is fatigued. You may have enjoyed the music but you don't really feel like going back and listening to it again."

Ludwig's final assessment of the decade in music?

"It's been really rough, folks," he says. "But it can get better and I think it will get better. I'm glad it's going to be over."

Digital Compression

Digital compression is the process that allows a song to go from being a very big sound file in its natural state to a very small file in your iPod - so you can carry your entire record library in your pocket. But at what cost?

Dr. Andrew Oxenham is a professor in the psychology department at the University of Minnesota. His specialty is auditory perception - how our brains and ears interact. He also started out as a recording engineer.

Robert Siegel asked him to explain digital compression.

"Really, the challenge is to maintain the quality of a CD, but to stuff it into a much smaller space," Oxenham says. "Let's think about how digital recording works. You start out with a very smooth sound wave and we're trying to store that in digital form. So we're really trying to reproduce a smooth curve [with] these square blocks, which are the digital numbers [the 1s and 0s that are used to encode sound digitally].

"Now, the only way you can make square blocks look like a smooth curve is by using very, very small blocks so it ends up looking as if it's smooth. Now using lots and lots of blocks means lots of storage, so we end up using [fewer] bigger blocks. Which means we end up not representing that curve very smoothly at all."

Lost? Go back and re-read it - you'll get it.

"The difference between the smooth curve and the rough edges you end up with in the digital recording, you can think of as noise because that is perceived as noise," Oxenham says. "It's perceived as an error, something that wasn't there in the original recording. The trick is to take the noise - which is the loss of fidelity - and just make it so you can't hear it anymore."

In Hiding

It's called "masking." Think of it this way: You're having a conversation in a quiet room, and you can hear every word, every mouth noise, every stomach rumble. But if you were having that same conversation outside on a busy street, you'd get the gist of what was said, but you'd probably miss a few words. The traffic noise would mask them.

So let's say you're listening to a Brahms symphony.

"[The loud parts of the music are] giving the coding system a lot of leeway to code things not quite as accurately as it would have to," Oxenham says, "because the ear is being stimulated so much by the loud sound it won't pick up very small variations produced by the coding errors."

In other words, the loud parts of a recording are used to "mask," or hide that noise produced by the rough-edged squares of those digital 1s and 0s.

But are we missing something?

"There are really different levels of MP3 coding," Oxenham says. "You can go from much less data - which people can hear the difference - to higher levels of coding which take up more space on your MP3 player but sound better and are basically indistinguishable from a CD. And I would argue that under proper listening conditions - if it's really indistinguishable from the CD as far as your ear is concerned - then you really haven't lost anything perceptually."

Oxenham likes the convenience of portable MP3 players. But ultimately, he says, he prefers going to concerts.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:47:41 PM PST
wow, thats' interesting.. I used to have an ipod. but I got it alittle wet,, and that was the last of my 6,735 songs.. Man, they're touchy things.. so I went back to my Sony Walkman with CASSETTES.. I have so many, you know the Stereo stores etc dont' sell Walkmans' anymore,, and you have to get them on Amazon or Ebay now,, they last preety long.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:52:33 PM PST
Butterfly says:

I listen to my IPod daily. I have a cassette and a CD walkman but I forget all about them because I love the superior sound of my IPod.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:53:50 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Going to watch "Emma" on Masterpiece Theatre.


Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:54:54 PM PST
I know,ipod's are incredible.. I just forgot to take mine out of my truck over night and it rained on the cab and just abit of water got in my bag,which I had open but it was still covered up by clothes.. It didn't take much to ruin it.. I'll get another one someday

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 5:57:22 PM PST
How can you watch a movie when there's so much music left to listen to! Lol. I saw."Meet Joe Black" the other nite with Brad Pitt.. I liked it.. You seen that one?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 6:12:42 PM PST
DKPete says:
A.P...I have all of this stuff on the remastered CD editions of their albums put out a few years back by Rhino. I've also rebought the first two albums on re-issued heavy vinyl. Chicago were among my favorite bands between the time period 1969 and 1975.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 6:25:10 PM PST
stevign says:

Same thing, it cries, fidgets, throws poo around, needs to be fed every 3 hours then takes a nap.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 7:13:14 PM PST
barbW says:
6735 songs is worth more than an iPod, no? I hope you had backups..

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 7:16:54 PM PST
Butterfly says:

re: Meet Joe Black

Oh my goodness, Jim. This is on my list of top 5 favs of all time. I liked the soundtrack as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 7:31:45 PM PST
barbW says:
He gave Blacks a bad rep. Did he take the girl down to hell in the end? I thought he might.. was that the hopeful expectation?

Oh wait, he becomes human and eliminates the devil from our world.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 7:39:10 PM PST
J black. ah, thats' too funny

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 7:44:46 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Let's get back to music, shall we?

I was supposed to post "The Saint" soundtrack. I'm going to youtube....

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 7:49:48 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Val Kilmer in The Saint- "Out of My Mind" by Duran Duran

Back with a few others if I can find them.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 7:51:44 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 24, 2010 7:52:37 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Orbital - the Saint Theme

Videoclip made by Orbital, for the movie The Saint with Val Kilmer.

Posted on Jan 24, 2010 8:08:37 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 24, 2010 8:09:54 PM PST
Music it iS

634-5789 - Wilson Pickett
634-5789 - Jimmy Hall
Crimson and Clover - Tommy James
Crimson and Clover - Joan Jett
The Letter - The Box Tops
The Letter - Joe Cocker
The boy from NYC - The Ad Libs
The boy from NYC - Manhatten Transfer
Superstar - The Carpenters
Superstar - Bonnie Bramlett
Just one look - Doris Troy
Jost one look - The Hollies
Just one Look - Linda Ronstadt
SHotgun - Jr Walker
Shotgun - Vanilla Fudge
Roll over Beethoven - Chuck Berry
Roll over Beethoven - The Beatles
Roll over beethoven - ELO
Twist and Shout - The Isley Brothers
Twist and Shout - The Beatles
My Girl - The Temptations
My Girl - Otis Redding
Respect - Otis Redding
Respect - Aretha Franklin
I'm a Man - Chicago
I'm a Man - Spencer Davis group
You keep me hangin on - Supremes
You Keep me hangin on - Vanilla Fudge
She came in thru the bathroom window - The Beatles
She came in thru the bathroom window - Joe Cocker
Wild Thing - The Troggs
Wild Thing - Jimi Hendrix
All along the Watchtower - Bob Dylan
All along the watchtower - Jimi Hendrix
All along the watchtower - Dave Mason
Try a little tenderness - Otis redding
Try a little tenderness - Three Dog Night
Let it be - The Beatles
Let it be - Leo Sayer
Let it be - Jennifer Hudson
Summertime blues - Eddie Cochran
Summertime blues - Blue Cheer
Summertime blues - The Who
I shot the Sheriff - Bob Marley
I shot the Sheriff - Eric Clapton
Knockin on Heaven's door - Bob Dylan
Knockin on Heaven's door - Eric Clapton
Knockin on Heaven's door - Guns & Roses
Locomotion - Little Eva
Locomotion - Grand Funk
You've lost that lovin feelin - Righteous Brothers
You've lost that lovin feelin - Hall and Oates
Stormy Monday - Allman Brothers
Stormy Monday - Lee Michaels
Get Back - The Beatles
Get back - Rod Stewart
Maybe I'm amazed - Paul McCartney
Maybe I'm amazed - The Faces
Grapevine - Marvin Gaye
Grapevine - Gladys Knight
Wonderful World - Sam Cooke
Wonderful World - Herman's Hermits
A change is gonna come - Sam Cooke
A change is gonna come - Otis redding
A change is gonna come - Jimmy Hall

These are songs coming out of my head. i couldn't think anymore.

Good Night all and enjoy the music

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 8:19:22 PM PST
barbW says:
Musicians get tired of music, but -normal- people don't seem to..

How much would we lose if we learned to analyze pop music?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 8:20:19 PM PST
Butterfly says:
Wow Joe, and the covers as well. Thank you so much. You know I have to find some youtube offerings. :-)

Good night to you too Joe.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2010 8:24:42 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 24, 2010 8:25:41 PM PST
Butterfly says:
J. black,

re: How much would we lose if we learned to analyze pop music?

Why don't you start? I don't know you so I don't know if you are serious or not.
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Discussion in:  Music forum
Participants:  176
Total posts:  5546
Initial post:  Jan 20, 2010
Latest post:  Aug 3, 2013

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