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Capitol Help! LP-strange label variation


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Showing 1-25 of 28 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jun 24, 2012 12:08:10 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 24, 2012 12:08:51 PM PDT
DKPete says:
I just picked up a used vinyl copy of the Capitol Help! LP. Although the cover is pretty beat up and the record is only in "ok" shape, it's the Capitol label variation which caught my eye.

All Capitol rainbow labels which I'm familiar with only have the numbers "1" or "2" listed for each side differentiation. This particular label actually says, on each side, "side 1" and "side 2".

I looked in the Spizer books and there is no such label variation printed.

Does anyone out there have a reasonable Beatles vinyl collection that can check out your capitol/rainbow copies of the Help! album and see if you have such a copy?

Although the cover looks as authentic as can be (and, as I said, quite worn), I'm wondering if i could have ended up with a counterfeit here.

Posted on Jun 24, 2012 12:19:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 24, 2012 12:20:35 PM PDT
Grandpa Tom says:
Hi, Pete:

Just checked mine, and it has just the numbers 1 and 2 on each side, no printing of Side. I bought mine new at a record store over 40 years ago, and it's stereo.

Was that released in the US in MONO? If so, would that account for the difference? Is your newly acquired record Mono or Stereo?

GT

Posted on Jun 24, 2012 2:28:17 PM PDT
Capitol MAS/SMAS 2386 Lp, August, 1965. Mono was MAS prefix; stereo was SMAS.

Posted on Jun 24, 2012 2:56:51 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 24, 2012 5:22:34 PM PDT
"The Beatles Story on Capitol Records" is absent from my Spizer collection. So I began looking elsewhere and found in chapter 9 of his "The Beatles Swan Song" a record club edition of Help! is shown where the "Side" designation is used. My copy of the LP was purchased circa '76 so it's no help (orange label, with "Side") [apologies for the pun].

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 24, 2012 6:47:48 PM PDT
DKPete says:
Hi guys. Keen Observer seems to have come to the bottom of this. While the print configuration on my copy is still somewhat different from the label illustration in Spizer's Swan Song book, it's obvious that it was the Record Club editions whch used the word "side" prior to each numerical indication. Spizer does not account for these pressings in his earlier book on the Capitol Albums.

Thanks for your inputs; dilemma solved.

Posted on Jun 24, 2012 10:04:48 PM PDT
Dr. Mikey says:
Hi, Pete. Not to belabor the point, but I was wondering if your LP is worth more because of its rarity? (Although condition might be an issue in this case.) I haven't had a price guide in many years, so don't really know the value of the LPs. My LP of HELP! (actually purchased in 1965 by my wife) is a mono first edition East Coast printing, so isn't esp. valuable I wouldn't think. Your post has made me want to go back and play the "non-Beatle" (Ken Thorne) tracks from the LP. It's been so long since I've heard them that I can't even remember what they sound like. It's interesting what tangents we go off on from our conversations.

Posted on Jun 25, 2012 10:21:10 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 25, 2012 10:34:31 AM PDT
tmoore says:
Re: value of this LP. One place you could look at is the Goldmine price guide as it does break out prices for record club variations of Beatles LPs.

Also, if memory serves, for at least some Beatles record club variations, at the line of text on the label where the release number is (2386 for Help!), there is an "8" at the beginning of that line. I don't have my reference books with me as I write this; so I apologize that I cannot be more precise at this time.

Posted on Jun 25, 2012 10:42:13 AM PDT
crater face says:
Collectors frenzy has 3 sales listed for Record club editions of Help but they are for the 1969 issue, with the green label and the circular purple capital logo. they range from 30+ to $200 depending on condition.

Per Warmans american record guide (2004)price guide, SMAS-8-2386, capitol record club edition, black label rainbow perimeter,"8" on cover lists at $300-600.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 11:21:56 AM PDT
Dee Zee says:
According to Perry Cox and Frank Daniels "Beatles American Records Price Guide" Help! Capitol Record Club black rainbow with "manufactured under license" price range is $50 to $500. This book also has a color photo of the Stereo label with Side 1 clearly printed and manufactured under license in the lower rim and SMAS-8-2386.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 12:12:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 25, 2012 12:12:58 PM PDT
crater face says:
what date was that published? the info I had is 8 years old, from the OP's grading I would think the value of their copy is on the lower end, just curious as I have noticed over the last three years a drop in values for 'collectable' records, the primo items seem to have held their value, but the middle ground stuff has really lost $$$.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 12:20:04 PM PDT
ED S. says:
I went to a record store in Orange County (The OC), called Pepper Land who sells Beatle stuff and guitars. He said the price of all vinyl records has dropped dramatically. "Nobody cares about vinyl anymore" was his reply. Remember the big prices of the 1990's. I bought a collectable Bangles 45 with picture buttons of each bangle and the price I paid is just 5 dollars less than what is asked for the same item today and that was more than 15 years ago.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 1:01:17 PM PDT
Dee Zee says:
The Cox/Daniels price guide is 2007. Before the bubble burst.

Posted on Jun 25, 2012 2:00:59 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 25, 2012 4:27:43 PM PDT
tmoore says:
The latest Goldmine Record Album price guide is from fall 2009 (which really isn't that new anymore). I do not own it.

I do own an earlier one from fall 2007 which serves my needs as an info source about labels, release numbers, reissues and such (don't pay much attention to the prices).

Looking at that 2007 edition, there are two variations, with the variation being on the cover:
Capitol Record Club Edition; black label with colorband; no "8" on cover --> $400 near mint (NM)
Capitol Record Club Edition; black label with colorband; with "8" on cover ---> $600 near mint (NM)
with the following guide for lesser condition:
VG -- no more than 25% of NM;
Good -- 10-15% of NM
Poor/Fair -- 0-5% of NM

For what it's worth, I have gotten other records (not Beatles) for a lot less than what's shown in this guide (even considering the percentage of the near mint price). And these prices are from 2007, as mentioned earlier. However, it is acknowledged in the book that the Beatles (and Elvis) are different beasts than everyone else; that's obvious anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 7:08:01 PM PDT
DKPete says:
I don't know where this puts my copy but the label itself says, SMAS-2386...no "8"...right underneath that number is another number in parenthesis: (SMAS-X-1-2386). While the record itself is in 'good' condition, the cover, as i said, is relatively discolored and not in great shape.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 7:21:29 PM PDT
Dee Zee says:
Does the label have "Manufactured Under License" in the lower rim?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 9:03:02 PM PDT
DKPete says:
No. It says, "Manufactured by Capitol Records, Inc a subsidiary of Capitol Industries...."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 25, 2012 11:02:57 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 25, 2012 11:05:00 PM PDT
That printing started with Capitol Records "rainbow" stock labels about late October, 1968, being replaced with a pea-green "ball" logo label about April, 1969. Stereo only by that point; Capitol ceased the mono versions about Capitol T 2902, maybe April, 1968.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 26, 2012 5:58:37 AM PDT
Dee Zee says:
Is the perimeter printing above the rainbow or inside the rainbow. I ask because from 1983 to 1988 Capitol went back to the rainbow label design and if the perimeter printing is inside the rainbow, the record is from that era. Help! Stereo was reissued at that time.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 26, 2012 6:10:12 PM PDT
DKPete says:
Dee Zee..it's above the rainbow. So from what I'm getting out of all this-including SOF's post-is that I have a Record Club Edition from 1968 (or close thereabouts). I just played it last night...very good playing condition and it sounds great. I just wish that cover was in better shape....can't have everything.

Posted on Jun 26, 2012 6:13:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 26, 2012 6:34:33 PM PDT
tmoore says:
I don't think it's a Record Club release. Spizer only shows examples for those (p. 241 and 242 of his Swan Song book) with "8"s (e.g., ST-8-2108 for Something New). I think what you have is a Subsidiary Rainbow from 1968-69 from Scranton - read on.

Generally, all vinyl I've ever seen issued by Capitol US beginning with the orange label (starting in late 1972) up to the end of vinyl as the commonly used method of release (including the 1983-88 rainbow label) has had rather large numbers at nine o'clock (on the label) to denote sides (not "Side 1" or "Side 2" text). For that reason and the reason mentioned in the next paragraph, I don't think what you have is from 1983-88. (edit - and you just confirmed that as I was typing this)

The "X" you mention (SMAS-X-1-2386) is interesting. Spizer's Swan Song book shows various Capitol reissue labels on p. 227 of that book (you can see the large numbers I was talking about (in previous paragraph) there on the later labels). I only see the "X" you are talking about (timewise) up to and including the short lived red "target" label of 1971-72. That would rule out anything after 1972.

Did you see the Subsidiary Rainbows section of Spizer's Capitol album book (p. 183)? Is what you have similar to what is shown on the Revolver example on that page (that example has an "X" and it also has "Side 1" text)? That would be a Scranton/LA label. Text on p. 184 indicates that Help! was released with that type of label and with "Side 1/Side 2" text (table on p. 184 indicates it was only confirmed as being made in Scranton).

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 26, 2012 6:40:41 PM PDT
DKPete says:
tmoore...excellent detective work my friend. I just went into the book and looked at the Revolver label in that section..the look of the label/print (particularly the print style of the word "stereo") and the info on the following page confirms that mine is a Scranton/L.A. pressing..and we are talking '68-'69.

I can't thank you enough guys. This was a fun little "search" thanks to all your help. Thanks again to all.

Posted on Jun 26, 2012 6:47:15 PM PDT
tmoore says:
I figure you may be interested in its value.

According to 2007 Goldmine price guide I mentioned in earlier post:

SMAS-2386 (1968) -- black colorband label; border print adds "A Subsidiary of Capitol Industries Inc."
NM value $50
lesser conditions, use percentages from earlier post.
Judging by what you described, in 2007 it was probably worth about $12.50 at the max.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 26, 2012 8:39:58 PM PDT
DKPete says:
tmoore, close enough..I payed 8 bucks for it. But the truth is, of all the Beatles albums, this is about one of two or three of which I only owned one copy-meaning, in this case, of the Capitol Help! My only other vinyl copy if of the late seventies Purple Capitol while I have all of the others (American, pre-White Album) on the rainbow Capitol, the Apple seventies re-issue and, in some cases, the lime Capitol label as well. So I really bought this one on a momentary whim because, let's face it, for another ten bucks or so I could have gotten another rainbow Capitol sixties issue in far better condition...but I spotted this one (without really looking for it), saw that it was in reasonable condition vinyl-wise, and went with it. The distinction of the word "side" on the label was an added factor of interest after I took a better look at it at home while I was cleaning it...certainly no Holy Grail of Beatles vinyl but a pleasurable little item for sure.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 27, 2012 5:56:19 AM PDT
Dee Zee says:
It's somewhat hard to find the US Help! LP with the cover in very good condition. Like the White Album, the mostly white Help! cover is prone to ring wear, discoloring and stains.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 27, 2012 6:27:00 AM PDT
tmoore says:
DKPete, you don't need to justify anything. I have also always found the labels interesting.

What I'd like to find (but have never really looked for) is one of the 1971-72 US Capitol red target label releases, which was only done with Yesterday and Today and Revolver, since all the other US pre-White Album releases went directly from lime target to Apple in 1971.

I am aware that Canadien pre-White Album releases never were switched to Apple labels and therefore were all printed with red target label for the short time it existed.
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Discussion in:  Music forum
Participants:  10
Total posts:  28
Initial post:  Jun 24, 2012
Latest post:  Aug 6, 2012

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