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Customer Discussions > Parenting forum

The Debate on Spanking is Dead

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Showing 51-75 of 80 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:16:34 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
Ask most teachers in public schools. They'll tell you that children have been increasingly rebellious and out of control. You say "the debate is settled among professionals" . Well, apparently, it is settled among the people who you choose to consider "professionals". This is such a highly non-objective standard it's not a useful gauge. Professional organizations are constantly subject to political lobbying as to be essentially worthless. Every single bad drug in the marketplace has been passed off as a wonder drug by some "professional". Your comment only persuades those ignorant enough of the worlds of academia and research to believe naively in whatever they have to say at any given moment in time. Professionals change their opinions all the time.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:17:29 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
You certainly do put a lot of faith in these international bureaucrats. I guess God hath spoken!

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:26:06 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
"social history tells us that..." So what? This proves nothing at all. The evidence of permissive parently is everywhere surrounding us, including the latest flash mob lootings. Only pinheaded pseudo-intellectuals like you can fail to see a level of "out-of-controlness" in our civilization. You undoubtedly live in an ivory tower where you never encounter any reality in conflict with your theoretical view of everything. One of the great benefits of doing whatever is necessary to ensure that children are well-behaved is that they actually like themselves better when they behave well. Additionally, the time their parents spend with them is much pleasanter and more rewarding, leading to all sorts of other benefits. The typical set of parents today find their children annoying and therefore choose to dump them elsewhere whenever possible, are happy to send them up to their rooms when older to play with their video games rather than learning good communication skills from adult company. Many of today's youths cannot communicate with anyone but their own age peers. This has a lot of undesirable repercussions for society as a whole. When these adult "youths" are in hiring positions in business, they often will only hire their age peers. It's a huge contributor to unemployment among age groups 45+. As our birth rates are now below the sustainability level in the U.S., you have to consider whether the contentious and angry family experiences due to the unpleasantness of out-of-control children is a large discourager of adults considering whether to reproduce at all. So, there will be a dearth of younger people paying into Social Security needed for those of us who are older.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:28:03 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
The problem with your comments is that very few people these days do spank their children. It's your polemic which is out of touch. However, we certainly do have a lot of ill-behaved young people in this country. If you aren't seeing it, then you aren't looking much.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:28:57 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
And when will you also reach the conclusion that abortion is murder? Oh, I know, that's "different"!

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 2:32:52 PM PDT
janeausten76 says:
Excellent point, and, I must say, a breath of fresh air! Most people with brains have scant respect for the fields of child psychology or education, and despite the attempts of people in these fields to consider themselves scientists, what they publish has precious little to do with science, and a whole lot to do with opinions and promoting their own worldviews.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 3:04:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 10, 2011 5:09:45 AM PDT
james warren says:
The problem with your comments is that very few people these days do spank their children. It's your polemic which is out of touch. However, we certainly do have a lot of ill-behaved young people in this country. If you aren't seeing it, then you aren't looking much.
"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents . . . gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs and tyrannise their teachers."


"If any of you has a disobedient and rebellious son, who does not respond to the instructions of his father or mother, you are first to discipline him. If he still does not heed you, you are to bring him to the elders at the gate of the city. You are to say to the elders of the city, 'This son of ours is disobedient and rebellious. He won't obey us. He is a glutton and a drunk.' The men of the city are then to stone him to death. In this way you will rid yourselves of this evil, and everybody else will hear about it and be afraid."

--Deuteronomy 121: 18-21


Disobedient children were a serious problem centuries before hip-hop and Hollywood.

Even in ancient communities structured around religion, NO ONE clearly knew what to do except to mandate a death sentence for their own children law.

Read Deuteronomy and you'll quickly realize that substance abuse and alcoholism are nothing new. The Bible--the same book conservatives are taught at home and school is the Word of God--is rife with kids running wild and killing each other. Sons warring against fathers, brothers raping sisters, boys squandering inheritances, siblings throwing each other down wells, and scantily clad girls dancing wildly and then calling for the severed heads of prophets (at Mommy's instigation)...

Things are better now. People have more choices. There are alternatives to violence against children. We have NO excuse for not knowing what these alternatives are and how to learn them.

Good news is breaking out everywhere. It's just that our information overload and the attendant sensitivity to the world around us had made some fearful. While a small part of humanity is retreating from full-bore fear back into the comforts of fundamentalism and tradition, there is some new magic afoot.

We can and will do better. We can and will solve our problems without violence. Big people no longer have to hit people smaller than they are. We have all the information and research we need. In fact, the truth is now screaming at us in the face...

We can and we will make a better world for our children.

Take heart, janeausten76. Things are better than we can imagine...

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 20, 2011 11:43:27 PM PDT
Jane, you mention 'world view'. Does it make you angry that I know you were spanked as a child? Your own world view has been formed based on such experiences. You display an obvious orientation toward the acceptance of violence toward children by adults. It's an orientation made obvious by a number of your unreasoned and ludicrous claims.

For example, have you asked most teachers in public schools their views on today's students? That would be quite an accomplishment.
Another example. You claim that 'certain chosen professionals' who have taken a stand against spanking have done so as the result of some secret, underground 'political lobby' with enough money and power to convince every professional organization in North America concerned with the care and treatment of children to take a public stance against the practice of spanking children as a matter of policy. This overwhelming consensus of professionals hardly represents a mere 'chosen few'. Regardless, oerhaps you could direct me to the where abouts of your anti-spanking lobby out there controlling professional opinion. I'd love to join them! (Just kidding. No such lobby exists).

True enough, professionals have been known to change their opinions on occasion related to certain matters. But, when those matters relate to racism, misogyny, ethnic and religious intolerance, ageism, and discriminatory, potentially harmful practices (in this case against children), you will find concerned professionals quite steadfast in their opinions.

Posted on Aug 21, 2011 1:27:57 AM PDT
james warren says:
janeaustin76, Hello?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 21, 2011 1:32:08 AM PDT
Richard says:
few people these days do spank their children

A sweeping generalization with no facts. Where do you gather your information? Give us some numbers please. How many children are spanked in their homes? How many of those spanking episodes lead to outright abuse that lands a child in the hospital? How many children are legally assaulted in their schools by their teachers? In what states do the majority of those assaults occur? What infractions bring on the assaults.

You cannot post wild unsubstantiated allegations and expect anyone to accept them as truth. That is simply a waste of time. Don't bother posting here if you are not willing to show us evidence. If you are a troll, leave now and do not come back.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 22, 2011 1:59:15 AM PDT
Richard, you are correct. Reason and logic from the perspective of pro-spankers does not come into play related to this issue of violence against children.

Formative years learning (from birth up to age 8) in children is not far removed from the 'imprinted' form of learning that can be seen in the animal world (where a new born duck, for example, identifies the first living thing it observes as it's life-long parent... regardless of species.)

As you may know, it's during these formative years that children formulate their belief systems, which include such things as religious orientation and cultural customs. If a family custom includes the practice of adults hitting children, the child may accept this practive as a part of their reality... a part of their belief system no different than their orientation toward religion.

In the case of such learning, reason and logic do not come into play... it is deep-seated belief that predominates. As such, don't discourage irrational thought, bigotry, and false logic as it destroys itself in the face of more reasonable thinking.

For those who would be parent's looking in, I suggest letting them see the failed reasoning of those attempting to support the practice of violence toward children. After all, and as you know, bigotry is easily defeated in argument.

And, in speaking for those of us who wish for a better world for children, thank you for your efforts in that regard.

Posted on Aug 29, 2011 11:32:19 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 4, 2011 9:38:20 PM PDT
Richard says:
James C. Talbot
As such, don't discourage irrational thought, bigotry, and false logic as it destroys itself in the face of more reasonable thinking.

I wish I could agree, but my experience interacting with bigots suggests to me there really is no way to destroy their bigotry. I've tried every way I could think of so if you have some secrets to share I am very open to hearing them. Ultimately, we have to face the fact that we have a big problem with parents forcing religion on vulnerable children because the roots of bigotry trace to religious faith.

With a few exceptions, I have no problem with adults who decide to take up a life of religion. That is everyone's right to follow their conscience. Unfortunately, the anecdotal record seems to show that adults generally take up religion in response to a life crisis and the decision is purely based on emotion. They are vulnerable to the siren call of religion.

The unethical religious grooming of vulnerable children can effectively destroy their autonomous decision making with respect to religion as adults. The grooming may even create an inability to think critically in other areas of their life as adults. Or at the very least seriously inhibit an appreciation for critical thinking and hence the desire to learn and practice this vital life skill. If you don't think critical thinking is a valuable skill why would you bother learning how to do this? We have a lot of research that must be done in this area. Here I would suggest that case studies of apostates offer a virtual gold mine of untapped knowledge. Apostates at some point smell a rat and decide to study their dogma carefully and with an open mind. That does it for a lot of people. Whether they go on to cultivate an open mind in all other areas of their lives remains to be seen.

I extend thanks to you also.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 29, 2011 12:19:24 PM PDT
Why are you so angry?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 29, 2011 12:21:40 PM PDT
I have children as well, two intelligent, sensitive, kind respectful daughters and I have always communicated and reasoned with them. Why in the world would I do anything different?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 29, 2011 12:34:50 PM PDT
When you say that most people with brains have scant respect for the fields of psychology,,,,I find that to be perhaps the most discouraging and disrespectful comment I have ever read. This is coming for a Licensed Independent Social Worker with 25 years experience working with children and families. I'll have to remind all of those families that have had hot meals, christmas toys and subsidized day care slots as well as emergency housing what a woman named Jane thinks of my profession. I bet they may have another story to tell.

Posted on Aug 29, 2011 10:05:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 29, 2011 10:07:03 PM PDT
Richard says:
Geoffrey S. Caflisch says:
With the attitude that Jane is expressing it is hard to avoid placing her in the category of unfortunate people that experienced a very destructive childhood. Statistically, those who were hit and humiliated tend to support hitting and humiliating children. This phenomenon is one of the most perplexing features of the issue of physical punishment of children. But I need not tell you that.

The question is what are we going to do about it? We must conclude that new or strengthened laws protecting children are needed. What are your ideas? Many people understand the issue, but are at a loss to devise a winning strategy. Consciousness raising is a good start, but it is going to take considerable effort and time to prevail against the hitters. We may have no choice but to attack their most cherished conservative religious beliefs.

Posted on Sep 3, 2011 8:52:10 PM PDT
Chris says:

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 7, 2011 5:34:20 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct 14, 2011 12:19:30 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 7, 2011 5:35:52 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 10, 2011 5:05:08 AM PDT
Bravo, James Warren!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 26, 2012 10:49:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 26, 2012 10:50:49 AM PDT
Deeone says:
Teach respect for elders
The recent verbal attack on a school bus monitor serves only to validate the fact that we have raised a generation of brats. What these children said is shocking.
If the parents can't see what they have left out in the rearing of their children, then perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to raise them. Respect for your elders is the basis of a solid moral foundation. If these children are not punished for this egregious act, they'll never understand the value of all human beings. This happens far too much in our society today. We have taught our children they can say or do anything they want without a thought of the consequences.
Ray Harris; Springfield, Mo.

These kids all need to get a spanking! Where is that ol cherry switch my dad had back wwhen!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 27, 2012 2:42:12 AM PDT
Becky says:
I agree wholeheartedly except for the spanking. Spanking is a sign of parental failure and the child who is hit learns this in its body first, then in the mind as the child grows. No one hits a child for any reason save to alleiviate their OWN childhood traumas. It is an ugly, vicious cycle and I see the results every day--the same consequences you apparently seem to be seeing as well.

I know the world is becoming more human and simple empathy is being expressed to others. About 1850, organizations like the anti-slavery groups and the Red Cross began springing to life. As late as a century before, dead soldiers were simply left behind on the battlefields of Waterloo to be stripped and otherwise violated by the peasantry nearby.

It will take time, but not hitting children is a new moral force, along with negotiation, problem-solving and mediation skills now being taught to children as young as 4 and 5. The modern world comes constantly, unbidden and ubiqutous. When we pay attention there are many good signs that positive change in the world happening above and below our own radar.

Most of us in my generation were spanked and that's the reason many of us still hit our own children. Usually we say things like "I had it coming" ( !!!) or "it worked for me." (it doesn't). It's a medieval habit that will vanish and shrink...

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 27, 2012 3:12:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 27, 2012 3:18:21 AM PDT
james warren says:
I agree brother (or sister?) Warren. I read all the parenting books I could get my hands on that were relevant in regard to parent-child communication and I never had to spank my daughter. She turned out great!

I worked part-time in her pre-school and the teachers there taught me to actually teach negotiation skills and problem-solving to kids about 5 or 6. They also taught me to "factually comment" on kids' behavior which increases their sense of self-regard and competence.
If a toddler (or even a younger child who has not learned to speak yet) is playing with blocks, sitting in her mother's shopping cart playing with a plum from the produce section you can say "You're playing with blocks!" or "You have a plum!" Just a simple descriptive phrase. Keep it simple and just show empathy with what the child is doing.

Of course if your child is acting out, saying "no" in a kind voice and gently holding your child and getting down to eye level with him or her and saying things like "I'm really disappointed that you did _______."
Try to identify the child's feeling so when it comes up again (and it will!) they will have a name for it. When you discover what your child's intention was behind his/her action you can later help them problem-solve or list OTHER ways to satisfy their intention that don't hurt or bother other people. Never give them "solutions" but just "active listen" until you understand where they're coming from and they feel they are being heard without being judged.

The book that really started my fire was Thomas Gordon's "Parent Effectiveness Training" [PET]. It showed me how to talk so kids listen and how to listen to kids when they talk.

It was invaluable and common sensical!

I became a human sponge for such knowledge and techniques when I was a new parent. There were lots of books available then.

I remember one book that provided scenarios of conflict between two young people and at the end of the story the book would ask "What can you do when s/he takes your toy?" Then the child you are reading to can pick their own choice and when you go to that choice in another part of the book you are given a list of possible consequences for each action your child chooses.

I wish I could remember the name of that series of books. I am sure they are on amazon now!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 29, 2012 1:37:05 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 29, 2012 1:39:43 PM PDT
kiwani says:
Hello! I'm glad to see you back on the forums & glad you're here. We've [I've] missed your wise, measured, common-sense responses & approach to parenting.

I don't know the particular/specific book you're referring to [that has the problem-solving/Choices scenarios], but I've read several similar-type books, & even children's games [teaching values] because I think many authors/& therapists have incorporated them into the curriculum options in the past several years. I have a therapist's activity/exercise/game that poses those options for kids, and provides the opportunity for clarifying discussions- either between children themselves [peer group discussions] as they play, between counselor & child, &/or between parent[s] and child[ren]. There are many available now, I think they're great...

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 29, 2012 10:19:56 PM PDT
james warren says:
Even parents who feel the only thing they can do is hit their own children have options! ;-)
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