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Spanking your children should be ILLEGAL.

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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 10:18:11 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2012 10:22:43 PM PDT
mises says:
"who-the-heck is Nate Phelps? "

Haven't you seen those "God hates non-spankers" signs being paraded around by the folks of Westboro Baptist? You're all going to hell for this. Don't say nobody warned you.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 10:27:14 PM PDT
Brian says:
Nate Phelps is the son of Pastor Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 11:15:48 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2012 11:45:08 PM PDT
kiwani says:
nope--never seen those signs or heard of him...don't really pay attention to "those kind of people" ;)
Westboro name sounds a bit familiar though--don't know of those Southern Baptists??
...have I mentioned I detest "organized religion"? :(probably for the same reasons the dad seems to be infamous)...
and don't believe in hell...

~and my favorite fictional-real life quote...? --let's see if I can remember how it goes...
"Fat priests lecturing starving peasants on the virtue of [ach-forgot this word:(] and the sin of gluttony"

--what'd this infamous guy do? ~let me guess... ---hypocritical, pious child abuser???---
(based on your warning--sounds like maybe he may go there in place of me, since I don't believe in it)...

edit/add: oh, here it is fully...had the words mixed up: [from fiction book-but it's still true/IMO]:
"Fat priests wearing gold chains lecturing starving peasants on the merits of poverty and the sin of gluttony."
~hypocrites, all...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:42:45 AM PDT
mises says:
Google is your friend.

Sometimes you blow me away with the knowledge you've picked up from your field, other times I feel like Bud Bundy, telling Kelly stories to see what he can make her believe. ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 8:08:10 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 8:09:50 AM PDT
kiwani says:
don't really care about not gonna google him... ;)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 10:03:23 AM PDT
Brian says:
Kiwani this could be your soul mate. Your spiritual life compass why so quick to dismiss?

Posted on Apr 20, 2012 10:26:03 AM PDT
Richard says:
Nate Phelps is an unusual person. The majority of children raised by Christian extremists cannot break free of their past. The system is rigged against them. They are raised in isolation (the danger of home schooling) and never know anything except what they are force fed by their rabid parents. Fred Phelps, the clan patriarch, epitomizes the stupidity and ignorance of a zealous Christian and then some. His clan, which I think numbers around 30 to 40 people are all family members. Some of them have law degrees and are able to use the first amendment to their advantage as are many extremists. They show up at military funerals with signs that basically applaud the fact that the deceased military person was killed. They picket family planning centers with gruesome signs and hateful slogans.

Persons like Fred Phelps can thrive in our free and open society. The irony is they hate our free and open society. Of all the advanced nations in the world we have managed to make freedom of religion a blessing and a curse.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 10:26:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 10:38:10 AM PDT
mises says:
Alright Kelly...

I'm sure you know about the "God Hates [Kindling Wood]" group, consisting mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family. Around four of his thirteen children have either left or been expelled from the group, and of those Nate Phelps has been particularly outspoken and informative on what makes them tick. I think it's far from the norm in Christian circles (at least lately), but he actually described their stance on spanking and his later opposition to it in exactly the same terms Richard would have - that it's actually a mandate, rather than an option, and that he more or less had felt like a bully for doing it and decided to stop.

I have a strange soft spot for these people, because they keep me guessing where the chink in their armor might be. There are tons of questions I'd love to ask them. They're actually nice and personable in their own way to anyone who talks to them directly, and physically harmless, although it'd be an almost Taliban-level nightmare if they really did have any influence.

I'd been feeling sorry for you guys, because I thought you could use some ammunition and didn't get you anything for Christmas.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 12:17:28 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 1:00:12 PM PDT
kiwani says:
:(m......haven't heard of that group...but have heard of 'a' group that disrespects military funerals:(

well...if the son has finally "seen the light" >> Good on him...
but the dad...? >>> phffft... karma will see to him...

perfect example of intergenerational transfer of values/lifeways I wrote of last year... how children learn to adopt and then [often] pass on the dysfuntional parenting patterns to their own children -who then pass it on to their children, and so on...down through the multitude of generations--across centuries [brian- you spoke of how spanking has been so prevalent in our families? well...this is how......] and just because this learned pattern of behavior was passed down to us from previous generations--does ot mean it is the most appropriate [or effective] way to discipline our children... we know more now about parenting & human behavior than our ancestors there is 'no' excuse for living in the past & not taking advantage of new knowledge.... would be taliban-like [or the religious theocracy in Iran] if the RW-crazies, et al. got into power...
independents & libertarians oughta think about that before casting their 2012 national & state votes...

p.s. never watched that show either...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 12:41:17 PM PDT
kiwani says:
~kudos to the son if he found the internal wherewithal to resist his father's will/power & reject that harmful dogma... Last year, Rachel Maddow featured a series of reports on a RWpower-crazy-religi/Christian-group known as the Family [based out of D.C.] who also spout members of our Congress in their membership... the Family uses its influence & power to influence other-developing nations overseas [like Uganda] in adopting RW-religi causes against human rights/gays/civil rights/traditional family roles-incl. corporal punishment... so--people's votes DO matter.
Rachel also had as a guest the son of one of the more famous/prominent members of the Family [can't remember either of their names], but the son [now into his late 30s/early 40s] finally realized the harm of this dogma and rejected it---finally being able to individuate & differentiate himself from the overwhelming influence/power/tyranny of his father, & have the courage to publically speak out & condemn that philosophy in its entirety ... I look up to this son [& Nate, too] for finally being able to separate himself and get away from this dysfunctional & narrow worldview...

blessing & a curse...yea...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 1:22:46 PM PDT
mises says:
You mean the CoG group? I've seen and read a lot about them, but didn't know (or maybe forgot) that they had anyone in Congress. I can't imagine not having YouTube as a resource anymore. It's almost as important as the rest of the web combined. Have you seen Rodriguez's video? Wrong, tragic and stupid. He would have done a lot more good staying alive and retelling his story to anyone who would listen for the rest of his life. YouTube came a couple of years too late for him:

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 1:51:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 1:57:07 PM PDT
kiwani says:
no, not the CoG group--this one is called simply: the Family [Google it ;P since it was on Maddow, it's probably on the web now--- and they were not happy about the exposure] --they are very elite & very secretive/mysterious and insidious... and they have influential members of Congress [both Senate & House].
-they applied for & received a 501c3 non-profit status---but that means they are not supposed to do political stuff (but they do) -and now the IRS is looking into this a fraud... they also own a DC townhouse that the Congress members rented rooms [listing it as their DC address] at below-market rates but did not declare the true value as part of their income--so again, IRS investigating fraud for this, too---they might be stripped of their non-profit status & be liable for back taxes... all this in addition to insidiously using their influence & power [as congressional people] to try to influence legislation toward RW Christian principles in developing countries... did you hear about Uganda's legislation? If you're found to be Gay >>death penalty! don't know if it passed yet...was on hold for awhile after Maddow's exposing it...but might be back on now...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 1:54:52 PM PDT
kiwani says:
yes, I saw the rodriguez video back then ...extremely sad & terrible events/family life/psychological effects he had to live with...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 1:57:03 PM PDT
mises says:
Two different Family groups:

I'll check them out.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 1:59:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 2:00:18 PM PDT
kiwani says:
yes--both part of same group >>offshoots

Jeff Shxxxxx [arbot?]wrote a couple books exposing them...he went undercover inside & learned all about their plans

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:08:48 PM PDT
mises says:
"yes--both part of same group >>offshoots"

You mean all the presidents from Eisenhower through Obama were involved with flirty fishing and child molesting? That would be hilarious, but you may have something a little mixed up here! ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 7:05:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 8:20:56 PM PDT
kiwani says:
no--The Family is the same organization that hosts the National Prayer Breakfast every year in DC -- the one that Presidents attend & speak at.... the other activities they are involved in are on their undeclared/Hidden agenda... they're an extreme-right-fundamentalist Christian organization....& they try to use their positions of power [in office] to influence policy all over-not just the U.S...[I think their original purpose/mission has been distorted/co-opted from its earlier beginnings...becoming more radical & fundamentalist now]...

Senator James Inhoffe & Rep. Mike Pence are heavily involved Family members also involved with the Uganda Kill the Gays bill pending in the Ugandan Parliament... so was Senator John Ensign & the Rep from the U.P. of Michigan [can't recall his name]-but he was the one who proposed the compromise over the abortion portion that was preventing the Healthcare Bill from passing back in 2010--& several other R-Senate & House members, too--many who lived [still live] at the club on C Street while in DC...

--found author's correct name: Jeff Sharlet --and the DC building used like the old-time English Men's Clubs is on C Street
- Author of:
The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power --and--
C Street: The Fundamentalist Threat to American Democracy

Rachel Maddow did a whole series on the connections and Jeff Sharlet was guest journalist several times...
On her website there are 12 short videos [6-7 min ea.] detailing all the connections & its secret agenda:
here's her website link to the first one of the series under the title of her series "Uganda Be Kidding":

The Secret Political Reach Of 'The Family' : NPR › Arts & Life › Books › Author Interviews
Nov 24, 2009 - A secretive fellowship of powerful Christian politicians includes some names that have recently been prominent in the headlines: Sen.

---and now I'm wondering if CoG 'could' be a part of it after all [via Family International], from the way it comes up on google... [??]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 8:51:33 PM PDT
Richard says:
C Street
Chapter One
The Family, or the Fellowship, is in its own words an "invisible" association, though it has always been organized around public men. Senator Sam Brownback (R., Kansas), chair of a weekly, off -the-record meeting of religious right groups called the Values Action Team (VAT), is an active member, as is Representative Joe Pitts (R., Pennsylvania), an avuncular would-be theocrat who chairs the House version of the VAT. Others referred to as members include senators Jim DeMint of South Carolina, chairman of the Senate Steering Committee (the powerful conservative caucus co-founded back in 1974 by another Family associate, the late senator Carl Curtis of Nebraska); Chuck Grassley (R., Iowa); James Inhofe (R., Oklahoma); Tom Coburn (R., Oklahoma); John Thune (R., South Dakota); Mike Enzi (R., Wyoming); and John Ensign, the conservative casino heir elected to the Senate from Nevada, a brightly tanned, hapless figure who uses his Family connections to graft holiness to his gambling-fortune name. Some Democrats are involved: representatives Bart Stupak and Mike Doyle, leading anti-abortion Democrats, are longtime residents of the Family's C Street House, a former convent registered as a church and used to provide Family-subsidized housing for politicians supported by the Family. A centrist occasionally stumbles into the fold, but the Family is mostly conservative. Family stalwarts in the House include Representatives Frank Wolf (R., Virginia), Zach Wamp (R., Tennessee), and Mike McIntyre, a hard right North Carolina Democrat who believes that the Ten Commandments are "the fundamental legal code for the laws of the United States" and thus ought to be on display in schools and court houses.
The Family's historic roll call is even more striking: the late senator Strom Thurmond (R., South Carolina), who produced "confidential" reports on legislation for the Family's leadership, presided for a time over the Family's weekly Senate meeting, and the Dixie-crat senators Herman Talmadge of Georgia and Absalom Willis Robertson of Virginia - Pat Robertson's father - served on the behind-the-scenes board of the organization. In 1974, a Family prayer group of Republican congressmen and former secretary of defense Melvin Laird helped convince President Gerald Ford that Richard Nixon deserved not just Christian forgiveness but also a legal pardon. That same year, Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist led the Family's first weekly Bible study for federal judges.
"I wish I could say more about it," Ronald Reagan publicly demurred back in 1985, "but it's working precisely because it is private."

Go here to read more:


Yes Ronnie, don't be honest with the American people. You and your cronies know what is best for the county.

Posted on Apr 20, 2012 8:54:33 PM PDT
Richard says:
Family uses its influence & power to influence other-developing nations overseas [like Uganda]

Their strategy is to go into impoverished countries like Uganda and buy politicians to implement their crooked cruel despicable policies (death to homosexuals, for example). They hope to create third world countries that would ultimately overwhelm the United States as Christian revolutionary soldiers. Assassinations, bombings and the like would be carried out here in guerrilla fashion. Meanwhile the rabid C Street instigators here in the US could deny having any connection to the death and carnage.

I know this sounds crazy. It sounds crazy because it is crazy, but it is true and these elected criminals walking the halls of our Congress know exactly what they are doing. Our main media organs have done very little reporting on C Street and The Family. An exception is NPR. To get accurate information people should go to Talk2Action or PFAW RW Watch web sites. Jeff Sharlet, is the author of C Street. He writes for Harpers. I posted chapter one of C Street.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 9:33:53 PM PDT
kiwani says:
"Our main media organs have done very little reporting on C Street and The Family. An exception is NPR. "
~and Rachel Maddow's 12-pt expose/interviews with Sharlet on mainstream exposed into the public record out of the secrets & shadows of these shady dealings & into the light of the public's awareness... [!]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 21, 2012 5:32:17 AM PDT
Richard says:
Yes, Maddow has done good reporting. All of this has only started happening in the last year or so, even though the story was out there for years. It had too much smell of a conspiracy theory. Guess what? It is a conspiracy. Free Speech TV, Current TV, and Link TV all offer news and documentaries with a left of center progressive slant. In other word, they are progressive and ethical. Not like Fox.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 21, 2012 8:41:11 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 21, 2012 8:42:05 AM PDT
kiwani says:
lol!:) -yes...
KO is not on anymore:( bummer
-He was off in 2010 & look what happened
-Now -look 2012 -his voice/advocacy is needed...
TYT, the WarRoom/Granholm, & Spitzer are good
-but KO is more willing to be like the Lion of the Senate
another fighting voice gone, and not replaced...:(

Posted on Apr 25, 2012 11:14:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 25, 2012 11:24:40 AM PDT
kiwani says:
~hola, mi compadres~we must all be on a vacation-break, lol :P

--I found this in my email today--and I think it relates in an important way to our discussion because- if we do more to educate not only our children, but their parents/families on more effective education, parenting methods, & family functioning as the article suggests, then everyone benefits--(society included:-) :

BRIDGE Magazine: News & Analysis from the Center of Michigan

Guest column: Early childhood efforts need more than office equipment - 24Apr2012
By Jack Kresnak/Michigan's Children

A new report on the nation's efforts to provide quality early learning shows Michigan was one of the few states to increase preschool funding last year.

The bad news: We still serve only 18 percent of 4-year-olds and no 3-year-olds, putting Michigan in the bottom half of states in accessibility to pre-k programs.

As stated by U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan: "Raising the quality of early learning and expanding access to effective programs plays a pivotal role in improving our children's chances at being successful in grade school through to college and careers. It's the kind of investment that benefits us all."

This thinking, substantiated by numerous economic and scientific studies, should guide legislators' actions when doling out state funds and setting related policies. Michigan's new Office of Great Start illustrates recognition of the critical importance of early childhood. But creating an office is not enough. We must expand programs for young children and their families and provide a consistent source of funding to support evidence-based services and programs serving children from birth through age 3 and their families.

It's a commitment not just to the children of Michigan, but to Michigan's future.

As the report authors at Rutgers University's National Institute of Early Education Research wrote: "In a state shaken by economic distress, which has placed more children at-risk, early education can be a powerful contributor to long-term growth, if additional resources are dedicated to expand coverage and improve quality."

The first three years of life are critical to prevent large racial, ethnic, and economic-related disparities that begin to emerge as young as nine months of age and grow throughout life. Long-term disparities in educational success and their economic, social and fiscal consequences are profound. However, taking advantage of the first three years of life by supporting families to be their child's first and best teachers can help reduce future taxpayer burdens associated with disparate child outcomes.

For children birth through age 3, participation in high quality infant-toddler programs protects them from the negative impacts of poverty by increasing parents' abilities to support their children's healthy cognitive, language, social-emotional and physical development. Young children and families who access high quality home visiting programs and child care develop stronger literacy skills; are better prepared to start kindergarten; and achieve at similar academic levels as their more affluent peers, regardless of parental education and employment.

This should be more than enough evidence to prompt Michigan to do better for our youngest children who are most at-risk. The Office of Great Start was established to align, integrate and coordinate Michigan's investments from prenatal to third grade. Ensuring that infants and toddlers have access to high quality programs supporting healthy development and connected to high quality pre-k programs and early elementary is critical to reduce the education achievement gap and put all children on the path to education success.

We know we can - and must - do better than we are now, for the children and the state.

Jack Kresnak is the president of Michigan's Children, a statewide, nonpartisan and nonprofit advocacy organization based in Lansing.

~the organization I am planning, & would love to start encompasses these attributes, & more:), but of course funding is an issue...:}

Posted on Apr 25, 2012 11:41:44 AM PDT
Brian says:
Kiwani this post has nothing to do with the topic of the tread and is not one of our common fun derails. All you are doing is clearly un-cloaking your political agenda which has been very clear on this thread for a long time.

Posted on Apr 25, 2012 12:31:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 25, 2012 1:00:43 PM PDT
mises says:
Social workers may want to branch out a little, into economics, which may soon be affecting children in much more frightening ways than a lack of enough funding for their local agencies with which to educate people on spanking:

Argentina's crisis came about solely through "progressive" planning, it seems, and many of the little boys and girls the social planners there claim to care about so much are actually starving. It went from once having had the fourth-highest per capita GDP in the world to this:

"Again, I can pin point the exact moment when the entire country realized what was happening. After the 2001 crisis things had been bad, but people in Buenos Aires, the capital city and the richest province, didn't realize how bad things actually where in the other provinces.
This was until teachers noted that kids had problems with education. You see, they noticed that they had problems to concentrate, that they fell asleep, and that they found it difficult to resolve mathematical equations.
They later found out that this was due to mal nutrition, kids where not receiving the minimum amount of nutrients for a healthy working body.
The braking point was when a reporter interviewed a little girl about 8 or 9 years old. The reporter lady asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up, the usual kiddy questions.
The girl, crying, said that she didn't want to be anything, that she didn't care.
The lady asked her why was she crying.
She said that she cried because she was hungry, that she had nothing to eat for days, and it was then that I noticed how skinny the little girl actually was.
Seeing children starve is terrible, I guess we all saw those images f the starving kids in Africa. But when you see them speak your same language, with your same accent, in your own country, it hits a nerve.
People talked about it for weeks, and they interviewed pediatricians that confirmed that the number of children dieing because of hunger had increased drastically in the last few months."

But the country is a signatory to whatever piece of paper that would magically put the US in its good company, were it to be one also, and I guess that makes it more enlightened or something.
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