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Spanking your children should be ILLEGAL.

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Initial post: Mar 20, 2009 5:12:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 20, 2009 5:14:59 PM PDT
Swordssss says:
Because I like opening cans of worms............

The ignorance of people highly amuses me and has caused me to make yet another post on Corporal Punishment.......Beating a dead horse if you will.

Let me partially address three of the arguments....

The Religious Argument

What a bad argument. Half the time people quote a line that is not even in the bible......"spare the rod spoil the child" search that in google along with Samuel Butler and you will find that that quote is NOT even in the bible. Another issue is the issue of the translated words "Rod" and "Correction".........

""""there are three different words that are translated into English as "rod" and the one used in the often quoted Proverbs text is "Shebet". The Shebet was the large walking staff held by the head of a family, the king's sceptre, or the shepherd's crook which was used to rescue and guide sheep. Guidance was given by the kind and responsible shepherd whose rod was used to guide and protect his sheep, not to beat them. A version of the Shebet is carried by bishops to this day - as a symbol of guiding, not beating their people. It should be remembered that the "rod" referred to in Psalm 23 comforts people"""...........

""""The term "physical correction" is a term often used by parents and others who believe it to be their Biblical duty to punish their children by using corporal punishment. "Correction" is from the Hebrew word "muwcar" and means "chastening" or "come let us reason together". Reasoning together has nothing to do with physically striking a child.""""

The Parental Rights Argument

Every human has the right to live life without fear of being physically hit. Now obviously life doesn't work like that and people can still attack you. Yet, it is against the law to do so. With children their parents can smack them and have no fear of getting in trouble. Children have the right not to be hit. It is about time that this right is recognized......

The Look How Kids Are These Days Argument

This argument does not even hold any ground. For one thing one of the most common forms of discipline in America is.....guess what? Corporal Punishment! Only now are psychologists and educated individuals realizing the damaging effects of corporal punishment and publicly making it known. So parents get all defensive and say these people are wrong. They try and say look at the kids! They are so disobedient.... when the fact is........ corporal punishment is the cause.........

Look at all the countries where corporal punishment is outlawed. I see no anarchy or chaos..... In fact most of them are better off than the US.

One.

Posted on Mar 20, 2009 10:35:15 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Jul 8, 2010 11:43:55 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2009 8:12:05 AM PDT
Legendary swordsman, The problems with kids these days is lack of parenting. Parents are too busy to teach their kids manners, responsibility, respect and morals. They find it easier to let the tv and video games teach them to be rapists, killers, thieves, and so on... They are too busy to feed them nourishing food instead of chemical-laden garbage that is banned in every other country. A selfish child is most likely the product of selfish parent(s). Parents usuallt hit out of anger, as you have already touched on before, and just teaches that as a suitable way to deal with that emotion.
The area where I live children can call the cops if their parent lays a hand on them, and this is a frequent threat from child to parent. Some children find this fact empowering.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2009 9:04:21 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
The parents use the corporal punishment when the kids are younger as "a quick fix" and then when the kids get older they start calling the cops. Which they have every right to. While your scenario is true in some cases it is not true in all cases obviously.

Posted on Mar 21, 2009 11:13:23 AM PDT
Ev Doherty says:
I have NEVER spanked my son. He has Aspergers Syndrome, and doesn't feel pain, like most children. When my son was younger, my doctor gave me the book 1-2-3 Magic, which I read cover to cover, and put the information into practice. It was not always easy, and a LOT of times it was very difficult, but I was consistent and it paid off. I now have a well-behaved 12-year-old, who is by no means perfect -- you have to learn to "pick your battles", but he is always polite and has NEVER thrown a temper tantrum, or embarrassed me in public. I think spanking is the lazy way of parenting. I was spanked as a child and it did NOTHING to teach me how to behave. It only taught me fear, and I don't want my child to fear me.

Posted on Mar 21, 2009 11:00:27 PM PDT
J. Stoops says:
My wife and I spank our sons (going on 2 and 4). We do not spank excessively (it's a last resort), we don't "beat" our children, and we don't spank out of anger or frustration. We preface all punishment, whether timeout, the loss of a toy, spanking, etc., with a conversation about why they are being punished, the expected behavior in the future, and an affirmation of our love. My parents raised my brother and I with the same strategy. They never used a spoon, a belt, or some other tool of torture. However, when my brother or I demonstrated extreme disobedience we were punished accordingly. For my brother it turned out that it was much more effective for them to put him on timeout than to spank him, for me, the spanking was much more effective. I know there is a fine line between spanking and potentially abusing your child, and, that line gets crossed by more parents than we would hope. However, part of raising children is establishing authority and respect. It's not a foreign concept. We do everything we can in this modern era to eliminate pain and suffering, yet we've reared a generation unable to cope with fear or adversity. I believe that my wife and I are teaching our sons to communicate openly, to respect others, to express their frustrations in healthy and positive ways, and to understand that their actions carry repurcussions (sp?). I don't claim to have the market cornered on child rearing, nor do I believe there is a SINGLE method or optimal strategy for every child. There are undoubtedly children out there who can develop positive behavior without spanking. However, I have yet to see a method for punishing a 2-3-4 year old child in the midst of escalating misbehavior that promptly and clearly carries a comprehensible message that their behavior is inappropriate and must cease. Let me reiterate that we don't beat our kids and that we communicate openly and lovingly with them ALL the time (not some contrived "this hurts you more than me" bull). People think that spanking is an inherently mindless or barbaric tactic, potentially yes. But when you're needing to provide a comprehensible and meaningful message to a child that is limited in their understanding of cause and effect, let-alone ethics, spanking provides that decisive message. Fear of the spanking is only half of the equation, if that IS the only incentive for the child to improve then it wont work. IF punishment is delivered consistently and with moderation in a loving manner, delivered in an effort to build the child up, not tear them down, then the motivation for improved behavior becomes two-fold; avoidance of physical discomfort AND a desire for acceptance/acknowledgement/praise for right behaviors.

Posted on Mar 21, 2009 11:32:48 PM PDT
no the hell it shouldn't its displine to give them a spankin, now when u start beatin them with a fist or a cord u gotta problem

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 7:09:16 AM PDT
ritadel says:
Hitting teaches hitting. I have three grown sons whom I have never spanked, or hit, or insulted. They are wonderful, accomplished young men. When they were little I read every book on parenting I could get my hands on. I especially liked How to Talk so Kids Will Listen. I gave them short time-outs when they didn't cooperate, or flagrantly ignored some house rule (like no hitting!) I am a teacher and know that children who are hit grow to avoid adults. It's all about the relationship you have with one another, and if you feel enough disrespect for your children to hit them, believe me they will feel disrespect for you soon enough.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 8:01:08 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2009 8:07:15 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
"""My friend and I spank our wives. We do not spank excessively (it's a last resort), we don't "beat" our wives, and we don't spank out of anger or frustration. We preface all punishment, whether a spank, a slap, etc., with a conversation about why they are being punished, the expected behavior in the future, and an affirmation of our love. My dad used the same strategy. He never used a spoon, a belt, or some other tool of torture. However, when me mom demonstrated extreme disobedience she was punished accordingly. I know there is a fine line between spanking and potentially abusing your wife, and, that line gets crossed by more husbands than we would hope. However, part of being with our wives is establishing authority and respect. It's not a foreign concept. We do everything we can in this modern era to eliminate pain and suffering, yet we've reared a generation unable to cope with fear or adversity. I believe I am teaching my wife to communicate openly, to respect others, to express her frustrations in a healthy and positive way, and to understand that her actions carry repercussions. I don't claim to have the market cornered on spousal relations, nor do I believe there is a SINGLE method or optimal strategy for every wife. There are undoubtedly wives out there who can develop positive behavior without spanking. However, I have yet to see a method for punishing a newly wed wife in the midst of escalating misbehavior that promptly and clearly carries a comprehensible message that her behavior is inappropriate and must cease. Let me reiterate that I don't beat my wife and that I communicate openly and lovingly with her ALL the time (not some contrived "this hurts you more than me" bull). People think that spanking is an inherently mindless or barbaric tactic, potentially yes. But when you're needing to provide a comprehensible and meaningful message to the wife that is limited in her understanding of cause and effect, let-alone ethics, spanking provides that decisive message. Fear of the spanking is only half of the equation, if that IS the only incentive for the wife to improve then it wont work. IF punishment is delivered consistently and with moderation in a loving manner, delivered in an effort to build the wife up, not tear her down, then the motivation for improved behavior becomes two-fold; avoidance of physical discomfort AND a desire for acceptance/acknowledgement/praise for right behaviors."""

How you like my edits? I'm not saying you don't love your kids so don't get offensive. Yet, you are wrong about what message is being sent. You may think that explaining why they are being hit and then loving them after makes it all good. It doesn't. All they are learning is, bullying, and power and how to obtain it over those smaller than you.

"""let-alone ethics"""
Also what kind of ethics do you teach a child when they see that if they do not do something the parent wants, the parent uses physical force to get the desired action. Basically you are teaching, might is right.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 8:02:18 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
Can I discipline my wife with a spanking when she is out of line? May I discipline my employee when he is out of line with a spanking?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 3:40:14 PM PDT
Ev Doherty says:
I think it all depends. Does your wife/employee like to be spanked? Just kidding. If I hit an adult--It's assault. If I hit a child --It's discipline? From observation: People only spank their children out of anger and frustration. In my opinion: That is not parenting.

Posted on Mar 22, 2009 3:42:18 PM PDT
N. Usher says:
Yet "timeouts" and negative consequences (such as taking away a privilege) are not always solutions to the problem. I see nothing wrong with spanking a child to get a point across. Abuse encourages future abuse, but there is nothing wrong with spanking.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 4:48:09 PM PDT
Swordssss says:
I actually do not agree with punishments at all. I follow the work of Alfie Kohn. Unconditional Parenting it's called. Anyway, read my comments. Spanking a child is hypocritical, teaches the wrong lesson, and can give lasting effects either physical or emotional or both.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2009 4:49:53 PM PDT
Swordssss says:
LoL they might liked to be spanked.... whatever floats someones boat lol.

Spanking is usually given in frustration anyway, like you said. Physical violence releases negative emotions whether you think you are doing it calmly or not. The combination of hitting a child, the child crying and squirming, and you trying to keep them down. That is NOT a calm situation.

Posted on Mar 22, 2009 7:06:18 PM PDT
J. Stoops says:
So my wife and my sons are in comparable stages of mental development? You encourage a system devoid of negative repurcussions? Honestly? So in life robbery doesn't result in prison? Cheating at school doesn't result in suspension or expulsion? Embezzling money at work doesn't result in the loss of a job and criminal charges?

Don't worry about my being offended, if I was unprepared for the response I would not have posted in the first place. :)

You are failing to differentiate between the mental characteristics of adults and children. Spanking is effective because a child's ability to comprehend more complex demonstrations of cause and effect (misbehavior and punishment) is limited. If spanking is used as a controlled and measured response to misbehavior, one of many potential ramifications, and the ramification reserved for episodes of outright disobedience where other methods have been inefective, then I believe it can be effectively utilized in rearing healthy children who DO respect authority and do not fear adults. Oh, and you're right, not likely a "calm situation"... on the part of the child, though such calamity doesn't necessarily require spanking, I've seen plenty of parents who choose not to spank watch their children have melt downs of epic proportions.

Kids learn boundaries by assimilating all kinds of input. Boys learn to ride bikes because when they fall it hurts like hell. That's NOT the only input you want them to receive, but it's a fairly effective motivator when it happens. Plenty of people out there have been playing out the "never spank" mantra since the 60's generation started having children (likely in response to their overzealous and overbearing parents). What we have now is the Millenial Generation. A group of young people who are capable of working more collaboratively than any before them. They are also pampered, unfamiliar with conflict and confrontation, and desperate for instant gratification. There's plenty of research out there on the subject. The roles of parents and children are not static, it evolves over time. You establish your role as an authority figure and as a caretaker first. Mutual respect and friendship are the product of 15-20 years of maturation and a gradual release to independance and adulthood.

Posted on Mar 22, 2009 7:23:02 PM PDT
J. Stoops says:
Look, maybe you're only familiar with "it's a battle of wills and I'm gonna break my child" type of parents. I know a few and they are harming their children. So are the scores of parents out there who are passively failing to guide or instruct their kids.

"Can I discipline my wife with a spanking when she is out of line? May I discipline my employee when he is out of line with a spanking?"

Does the cognitive development of your wife/employee indicate that they are unable to comprehend more intellectual forms of discourse? I grew up on university campuses and I've seen lots of intelligent men and women try to reason with their children at faculty picnics and the like. I think it made my parents sad to be surrounded by so many intelligent people who believed that incomprehensible communication or the complete lack of communication was somehow going to promote maturity and development.

I think it's possible to raise a child without spanking, but not every child and it would, in my opinion be just as difficult (if not more so) as learning to discipline your child with spanking but never in anger or frustration and only for the most grievous offense. In my opinion spanking also has no place in parenting when your child has developed the cognitive ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the communication abilities to discuss that with their parents.

Posted on Mar 22, 2009 7:36:01 PM PDT
S. Woodward says:
It is a parent's decision how they discipline their children. Spanking has gone on for generations with very effective results. I was spanked throughout my childhood, as were my brothers. I don't even seem to recall any high school shooting incidents (Columbine, Taber, more recently Austria..the list goes on) before this outcry against spanking began...

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 23, 2009 11:47:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 23, 2009 11:48:08 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
"""So in life robbery doesn't result in prison? Cheating at school doesn't result in suspension or expulsion? Embezzling money at work doesn't result in the loss of a job and criminal charges?"""

When you teach with rewards and punishments you teach the child to look out for only themselves. "If I do this then something happens to ME" It drives care for others away and focus' on the self. A much better alternative is open discussion. Problem solving and brainstorming on why the behavior is happening and how to help it. Not just spanking, which solves nothing.

"""Spanking is effective because a child's ability to comprehend more complex demonstrations of cause and effect (misbehavior and punishment) is limited."""

You obviously have little knowledge on child psychology and child development. Spanking does teach children. That using physical force will get desired (short term) results from someone. This is where bullies come from. Though obviously not in all cases. Spanking does not make the child think "oh taking suzies juice made her sad" the child thinks "dang this hurts I better not get caught anymore" or "dang this hurts I better not do it again or I WILL GET PUNISHED" selfish reasoning that can possibly create a criminal if the child takes the "not get caught route"

"""Boys learn to ride bikes because when they fall it hurts like hell."""

No they learn to ride bikes because it is fun. Yes, falling is painful but it is not like they have no choice in it. They may choose to not ride the bike on concrete and try on grass. With spanking there is no choice for them.

"""Plenty of people out there have been playing out the "never spank" mantra since the 60's generation started having children (likely in response to their overzealous and overbearing parents). What we have now is the Millenial Generation."""

Wrong. As studies have shown the majority of parents STILL use corporal punishment in America. The numbers have dropped since them but majority is still spanking.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 23, 2009 11:54:00 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
"""Look, maybe you're only familiar with "it's a battle of wills and I'm gonna break my child" type of parents. I know a few and they are harming their children. So are the scores of parents out there who are passively failing to guide or instruct their kids."""

Obviously you are right. Both extremes are negative. It's funny though. You are most definitely asserting your will on your child. "do this or you will get spanked" "don't do this or you will get spanked". No discussion whatsoever just you and your will over the child's. It is not a battle it is complete dictatorship.

"""Does the cognitive development of your wife/employee indicate that they are unable to comprehend more intellectual forms of discourse?"""

A question for you. If you never teach your child this and use spanking and punishment (or rewards) how are they learning to become an adult capable of intellectual forms of discourse?

"""In my opinion spanking also has no place in parenting when your child has developed the cognitive ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the communication abilities to discuss that with their parents."""

Children gain this ability as toddlers and the best way to help it grow is by training it by using open ended communication. Spanking is a one way street for the parent that the child MUST go with. How is this helping anything?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 23, 2009 12:00:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 23, 2009 11:00:11 PM PDT
Swordssss says:
"""It is a parent's decision how they discipline their children."""

And the government only intervenes when YOU think they should? When it doesn't affect YOUR parenting? I am sure child abusers are raising their children by their views. The government has to stop them because their view is wrong. As is yours......yet luckily for you majority is on your side. For now, at least.

"""Spanking has gone on for generations with very effective results."""

Laughable, society has always been sick and messed up. I blame the parenting. People say kids are worse these days, but that is a myth sent forth by supporters of traditional parenting and people fall for it, with NO evidence. Especially since their parenting style is still dominant. How does that make sense?

"""I was spanked throughout my childhood, as were my brothers. """

Yeah? So was I. I learned nothing. Except if my brother was annoying me I could hit him to get him to stop. Which I did, and you know the sick thing, it definitely had an effect on his personality, he could be a totally different person had my parents not spanked.... kinda crazy.

"""I don't even seem to recall any high school shooting incidents (Columbine, Taber, more recently Austria..the list goes on) before this outcry against spanking began..."""

Jump off a building... seriously. Did you know in the state Columbine is located corporal punishment is allowed in schools? Wanna bet the kids parents hit them? Oh, you seem to forget the bullying those kids went through that made them snap. V-Tech? The kid had obvious mental issues. Please....... for the sake of intelligence research what you say.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 24, 2009 3:34:37 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 8, 2010 10:14:18 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 24, 2009 7:38:42 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Mar 24, 2009 8:18:15 AM PDT
Jenn7 says:
Six years ago I was waiting tables at a TGIF. I had this one table and the little boy (perhaps 2..maybe 2 1/2) and he spillled his sprite (it was an accident). His mother grabbed him and just started wailing on him. I mean SPANK SPANK SPANK right there in the middle of TGIF. The thing that caught my attention was I had a cop sitting in my booth about 5 feet from this table and it got me thinking that if the husband would of been doing this to his wife that cop would of gotten up and taken action but because it was a helpless 2-3 year old boy it was O.K. It was there that I decided when I became a parent I would not spank my child ( I was also spanked growing up as were my 2 brothers) It is just bothersome to me that when it is someone that cant defend themselves you are allowed to punish "how you see fit" but if it was the husband (or the wife) punishing their spouses there are laws against that. All the school shooting can not be related to parents not spanking. Thats just silly. Spanking if anything shows the kids that violence is there answer. IF you dont like how someone behaves hit them and they will behave to your liking. The school shooting can be linked with latch key kids who dont feel like they have anyone to talk to. I am not disturbed by parents who spank their children calmly like a pat on the butt because they ran out in the parking lot or whatever. What disturbs me is parents who are angry and spanking their kids and just wailing on them but its acceptable because its on their butt. I have a 2 year old and he tests my limits all the time but I find that time out works the best. Although I do think that parents should be allowed to raise their own kids (lord knows we dont need government intervention on EVERYTHING) I do think some things need to be done tastefully.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 24, 2009 8:18:18 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Mar 24, 2009 8:18:36 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 24, 2009 8:24:50 AM PDT
Swordssss says:
I agree but with all respect the government needs to step in. There is a wealth of parenting information out there. Sadly too many people just copy what their parents did and since they "ended up ok" then they assume the parenting must be ok. The children need protection, that's all there is too it. I am not disturbed either by a parent who calmly spanks their child like you said BUT, I am aware that being open to such spanking can and could lead to a parent over doing it when they are angry, or that the parent does a lot worse in private.
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