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Can something come from nothing?

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Showing 1-25 of 209 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Sep 20, 2011 3:49:10 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 20, 2011 6:45:58 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 20, 2011 10:00:35 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
You may be interested in the following message and books which I submitted into another discussion.

Many people think that alchemy is all just primitive superstition.

I disagree however.

Jeff Marzano

The mysterious alchemist Fulcanelli felt that God is an alchemist who created the universe by converting energy into matter.

The stars convert matter back into energy as does a hydrogen bomb. A hydrogen bomb detonation is like a gigantic and deadly alchemy experiment.

One of the basic premises of alchemy is that all matter was created from a common substance which is sometimes called the 'undifferentiated substrate' or the 'materia prima'. The following web page has an interesting definition of the materia prima:

"Prima Materia is pure, undifferentiated energy - that which all of creation itself is made of."

The alchemists were able to reverse engineer matter. That's why they could for example convert lead into the materia prima and then re-engineer it as gold. I think this was done by combining molten lead with the philosophers' stone material.

In the book I'm listing below Fulcanelli describes what he observed when lead was transmuted into gold. The way he describes it sounds like the lead "died" and was resurrected as gold.

The philosophers' stone material is an exotic form of matter which is composed partly out of time itself. There's a weird connection between alchemy and the mysteries of time.

The legends about alchemy go back at least to very ancient Egypt. Alchemy was one of the subjects the initiation candidates learned about. Besides the philosophers' stone alchemy also includes something called the universal solvent which can dissolve any other substance.

It seems that throughout history there have always been those rare few individuals who understood the occult science of alchemy. Paracelcus was one of those people. The language used by the alchemists of old is intentionally ambiguous to conceal some of the details about alchemy. This type of knowledge can become dangerous not only for an uninitiated practitioner but for the entire world as the Atlanteans found out.

If the legends are true and Plato experienced the Egyptian rites this would explain where he learned about various things such as the mystical meanings of geometric solids. The idea of the materia prima sort of ties in with Plato's ideas about the forms which he viewed as his unique contribution to philosophy. Plato may have been trying to convey certain ideas that he learned about in Egypt without revealing the essence of this knowledge since the initiates were sworn to secrecy never to divulge those ancient secrets.

Joseph Farrell's book which I am showing below tells how the secrets of alchemy were rediscovered during the 20th century, either accidentally or by targeted scientific research. Alchemy is associated with the elements that fall between mercury and the platinum group metals on the periodic table. Alchemy involves changes to the atomic structure of these elements. Mercury is a very mysterious element and is part of the alchemical trinity.

According to Farrell the Nazis' entire world view was based on the occult. They were trying to unlock the lost sciences of the previous Very High Civilization to create super weapons and concur the world. Thermonuclear bombs is only one of those horrific secrets. The Nazi Bell machine may have had the potential to create a tear in the fabric of the space / time continuum.

People like Farrell see a connection between alchemy and the story of the golden calf in the book of Exodus in the bible. In the story Moses grinds the golden statue into a powder, mixes this powder with water, and tells the Hebrews to drink it. People think the powdered gold was a form of the philosophers' stone. They think Moses was also an initiate and member of that ancient and secret Egyptian priesthood.

Jeff Marzano

Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work (Le Mystere Des ... of the Hermetic Symbols of Great Work)

The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 20, 2011 2:31:35 PM PDT
Lisareads says:

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 21, 2011 1:26:58 AM PDT
Ron says:
Where does this Prima Materia come from?

btw - Moses did not ask the Israelites to drink powdered gold. Where in the Bible did you see that?

Ronald Green
"Nothing matters - a book about nothing" (iff-Books)

Posted on Sep 21, 2011 5:53:30 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Ron says:

[Where does this Prima Materia come from?]

Well that's a very interesting question that philosophers have wondered about for many thousands of years. Anything that happened before the Big Bang is outside of the laws of physics as they are understood today on planet Earth. Perhaps this is something that nobody anywhere can ever understand or find out.

Exodus 32:20 (New American Standard Bible (©1995))

He took the calf which they had made and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and scattered it over the surface of the water and made the sons of Israel drink it.

The entire story of the golden calf really doesn't make much sense when read literally. Moses goes up to the mountain to receive the 10 commandments and in his absence Aaron creates this statue that the Hebrews begin to worship like some sort of god. This may be one of those cases where the Old Testament captured the basic idea of what happened but it doesn't tell us everything. It tells us perhaps only what an untrained, casual observer would have understood. This may be true of other events mentioned in the Book Of Exodus such as the parting of the Red Sea.

This incident indicates several things.

Aaron who created the statue knew how to work with gold. I don't imagine it would have been that easy to take a bunch of gold objects and convert them into a statue.

Also I'm not sure it's that easy to turn gold into a powder.

Then what's the significance of turning the statue into a powder and having people drink it ? That' where the theory comes in that this powdered gold was a form of the exotic philosophers' stone material which is represented in the Egyptiain hieroglyphics as a cone shaped object that is presented to the pharaoh. According to the legends this substance can preserve health and youth when consumed.

Gold is another very mysterious element. It is the only metal that does not corrode.

This gets into the idea that Moses was a member and initiate of the Egyptian priesthood and so was aware of their ancient secrets. According to the legends Pythagoras and Plato also experienced the Egyptian initiation rites in their day. Alchemy was just one of the mysteries of nature that the initiates learned about.

There are theories that the Ark Of The Covenant was a radioactive device that was brought to the Earth from outer space and kept inside the pyramids until the Egyptian priests gave it to Moses. Earlyne Chaney thinks that when Moses took possession of the Ark the no good pharaoh freaked out because this was not part of his agreement with Moses about letting the Israelites leave Egypt. She thinks this is what caused the pharaoh to dare to pursue the Israelites even after the 10 plagues.

Whether or not Earlyne is correct about that I don't know. But the bible does seem to indicate that the pharaoh at first agreed to let the Israelites leave Egypt and then something happened to change his mind.

This theory also implies several things.

The Egyptian priests conspired with Moses against the pharaoh and his evil magicians. Perhaps this is when they sealed up the Great Pyramid, dematerialized the Atlantean devices that were kept inside the pyramid, and then dematerialized their own bodies. I don't think the body of Moses was ever buried. He may have also just disappeared one day with his magical staff.

Also the pharaoh, although evil, was nonetheless aware of the great knowledge that the gods brought to Earth in the distant past and he became corrupted by this power.

The bible alludes to some of this where Moses and Aaron have the confrontation with the pharaoh's evil magicians. Alchemy is part of those occult sciences.

Jeff Marzano

Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's library of mystical classics)

The Giza Death Star Destroyed: The Ancient War for Future Science (Giza Death Star Trilogy)

Posted on Sep 21, 2011 7:01:58 AM PDT
Ron says:
As far as physics is concerned, there was no *before* the Big Bang.

But you are talking about a material that was already around. My questioon is where did it come from? Who made it? Did it make itself? What was there before?

Posted on Sep 21, 2011 8:14:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 21, 2011 8:14:38 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
As I said this is the great mystery about the beginning of the universe.

I suspect this is something that only God will ever be able to know and there are many other things that fall into this same category.

Or perhaps I should say universes. Plato felt that the dodecahedron geometric solid is a representation of all of creation. This geometric solid has 12 faces. This gets into the idea that there are 12 universes.

There's a scientist who works at the Paris Observatory by the name of Jean-Pierre Luminet who agrees with Plato about the dodecahedron and the 12 universes. I guess old Plato was right after all.

People today realize that a large percentage of the mass of the galaxies is made out of something that is invisible. What is this 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' that surrounds the galaxies and the space in between ? Maybe nobody can ever know this.

Then again it appears that the various pyramids around the world were alchemical power plants at one time and they were able to capture energy from the forces of nature such as underground rivers, the Earth itself, the stars, space, etc.. The pyramid builders understood something called 'the ether'.

There are conspiracy theories that various government agencies are aware of a completely alternative form of physics which is kept out of the universities for various reasons, one of which is the potential dangers. Space may not be an inert, empty vacuum as conventional physics teachers.

This conspiracy theory includes the idea that Einstein really completed his Unified Field Theory but the implications of this knowledge were so horrific that this theory was given a very high security classification and kept out of the public domain.

British author and researcher Nick Cook feels that entire industries are in place today trying to solve technical problems that were in reality solved many decades ago. This creates the ultimate smoke screen for the public about what the state of the art really is.

Atheist Stephen Hawking feels that even God did not exist before the Big Bang and he thinks the universe created itself. And for that matter Hawking thinks God still doesn't exist. Hawking thinks that his mathematical equations have allowed him to discover and understand the answers to all of these questions. He appeared on the pilot episode of a new TV show called Curiosity where he propounded his materialistic views about the origins of the universe.

Hawking tries to communicate as best he can from his computerized wheel chair. He can't walk, talk, or even move.

I was glad I caught a follow on 30 minute TV show where people were interviewed about Hawking's comments on that Curiosity episode.

Author and theoretical physicist Michio Kaku feels that the question about the existence of God is outside of the realm of science. This is not a scientific question.

I think most scientists tend to agree with this. That was the impression I got from those interviews.

Jeff Marzano

The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology

Secrets of the Unified Field: The Philadelphia Experiment, The Nazi Bell, and the Discarded Theory

Haarp: The Ultimate Weapon of the Conspiracy (Mind-Control Conspiracy)

Posted on Sep 21, 2011 8:52:23 AM PDT
Ron says:
Science has the same problem as religion does when it comes to "the beginning". Neither has an answer.

It doesn't matter how many universes are posited, you are still left with the question as to how they started.

I set out the problem in my book.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 21, 2011 9:12:55 AM PDT
Lisareads says:
"It doesn't matter how many universes are posited, you are still left with the question as to how they started."
Only in a realities that has beginnings and time.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 11:19:16 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Ron says:

[Science has the same problem as religion does when it comes to "the beginning". Neither has an answer.]

Well both think they have an answer.

According to the bible God said:

"Let there be light." (Super Flash)

Then as I said there's Hawking with his theory that the universe created itself.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 11:20:10 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Ron says:

[I set out the problem in my book.]

I haven't read your book but what were your conclusions, if any ?

Just that religion or science doesn't know the answer ?

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 2:24:48 PM PDT
Ron says:
There are no realities that do not have beginnings.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 2:33:23 PM PDT
Ron says:
If I could set out the conclusions of my book in one line, I needn't have written it in the first place. Conclusions don't mean much if one doesn't see the arguments that led to the conclusions.

Only a believer would accept the Bible as having the answers. Also, I have no idea what one could possible mean by the university creating itself. From what? It means that the universe was in existence in order to be able to "create itself".

To say, as I do, that neither religion nor the Bible has an answer to how the universe started is not a frivolous comment. It means that there is a problem that so far has not been solved. My book was not written in order to solve that particular problem, but to discuss the posible reality of "nothing".

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 3:11:56 PM PDT
Lisareads says:
"There are no realities that do not have beginnings. "
Prove it.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 3:20:07 PM PDT
Ron says:
One does not have to prove a negative. If, for example, I say there is no God, I do not have to prove that, just as I don't have to prove that there are no fairies in my garden. It is for someone who believes that there are fairies at the bottom of his/her garden, to prove that.

So if you think that there are realities that do not have beginnings, then you have to give some examples.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 5:34:05 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 22, 2011 5:34:46 PM PDT
Lisareads says:
"So if you think that there are realities that do not have beginnings, then you have to give some examples. "
Today they found a particle that moves faster than the speed of light.

In a multiverse condition other universes can have different constants that will produce way different realities. We might not experience them and may even be in several.
The Hidden Reality: Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 22, 2011 11:10:01 PM PDT
Ron says:
"Parallel universes" are mathematical theories and have nothing to do with realities. They "may have" all sorts of things that are conjecured in order to explain mathematically the basis of matter. Since they are theoretical notions that cannot be experienced, they have nothing to do with our discussion and certainly nothing to do with beginnings.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 9:50:16 AM PDT
Lisareads says:
"Since they are theoretical notions that cannot be experienced, they have nothing to do with our discussion and certainly nothing to do with beginnings"
So is beginnings a theory. You can not prove it no more than you anyone can prove that there are realities without time.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 1:59:20 PM PDT
Ron says:
But I don't have a theory about beginnings. I stated that there is no effect without a cause. In order for me to prove that, I would have to show every effect in all circumstances in the universe. Now if you think that my statement is incorrect, you need to show me just one effect that had no cause.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 4:48:25 PM PDT
Lisareads says:
"I stated that there is no effect without a cause. "
What caused the cause?

Posted on Sep 23, 2011 5:22:21 PM PDT
mark says:

From an otherwise acceptable, if not agreeable, series of posts over the years, I have to take exception to your recitation, re: Hawking, from "Curiosity".

This is what he actually said. (I went back to it, On-Demand, and wrote down HIS exact words):

"...if the Universe adds up to nothing, then you don't need a god to create it...";

"...the role played by time, at the beginning, removes the need for a grand designer...", and,

"...the simplest explanation is there is no god...".

In the interest of contextual accuracy. Besides, I get a stick up my arse when one speaks inaccurately regarding Kant or Hawking. I must defend my heros, you see.

Oh yeah. Where did you read that Hawking is an atheist? I've read every published word the man ever wrote, that I can find, anyway, and I sure don't recall him saying he's an atheist.


In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 5:40:22 PM PDT
ReaderOne says:
Looking at the Obama Economy - he thinks so.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 6:33:26 PM PDT
Lisareads says:
"I sure don't recall him saying he's an atheist."
Recently he has come to the conclusion that there is not a God.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2011 6:53:10 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]
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Discussion in:  Philosophy forum
Participants:  17
Total posts:  209
Initial post:  Sep 20, 2011
Latest post:  Jul 15, 2012

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