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I pity Wedding Photographers...

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Initial post: Sep 23, 2012 8:59:30 PM PDT
There are just too many things to have to learn...

I was NOT the official photographer, just uncle to the bride... Dim day, and dim reception hall (with copper sheet ceiling -- oh well, better than last year where it was a matte black 2-story ceiling).

Canon EOS 50D, 580EX-II flash in bounce mode for the ceremony (white meeting tent. Used a LumiQuest Pocket Bouncer at the reception). Very short ceremony -- if it were shorter it would have been:

Do you, xxxx, take this scurvy sea-dog for a husband?
Do you, yyyy, take this sea-hag for a wife?
Exchange the booty!
I declare this marriage done!

Problem? Well, I had my fastest lens -- Tamron 28-75 f2.8 -- mounted, and decided to use Av mode; locked the aperture at f4 (some DoF and avoid the inherent edge unsharpness of a wide-open lens).

In Av mode (or Tv or M), Canon's flash algorithm is to treat the flash as FILL flash, and base the shutter speed (or aperture in Tv) on the AMBIENT (background) lighting... At ISO 100 with the sun not yet down, the outdoor shots were coming in at 1/25s. Image stabilization wouldn't have helped as the subjects were moving faster than desirable (as non-official photographer, I couldn't ask the procession to stop for my shots).

Reception at ISO 400 was still using long shutters.

I did, as an experiment, try a few shots on P mode -- where a Canon will use the flash as main light and ignore the background exposure. Those were all 1/60s (slowest Canon P mode flash goes without setting slow-shutter option -- to help save hand-held shots) at f4, but the backgrounds were definitely dark. Big difference in white balance too, from P/Flash balance vs Av/Ambient balance.

On a full-frame body, the 28-75 would have been great, but the venue didn't allow for long shots, and I was running out of room on the wide-end. I can't afford the 17-55 f2.8 IS USM, and don't quite consider the 17-85 f4-5.6 IS USM a candidate (I could have used the kit lens 18-200 IS instead).

I didn't have the nerve to ask the official photographer what settings they were using... Considering they (two people were involved) were using Canon EOS REBEL models with what I think was the kit 18-55 IS (though I thought one also said USM). The body with a flash looked to be a small 270EX with a StoFen diffuser.

One has to worry a bit when the unofficial photographer shows up with higher grade gear <G>

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2012 9:49:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 23, 2012 9:50:43 PM PDT
Ya, wedding photography sucks if you're not used to certain venues, so you know colors and amount of light so you can prepare better. You may have been better off putting the 580ex in manual and jacked up the power with bounce. There's no way you would've had many decent shots at 1/25 unless you got them to pose. Even then it would've been hard. With a 50d you should've just bitten the bullet and added more ISO in the reception. Couldn't be any worse than their paid photographer, unless he had scattered slaves everywhere.

I'm no pro in wedding photography, let alone anything else. But I've studied plenty to know big mistakes when I see them...and I learn the hard way sometimes. I don't like your son's music, by the way.

Posted on Sep 24, 2012 7:03:52 AM PDT
I don't shoot weddings. I do shoot in bad light, and you are better off dealing with a higher ISO than you are comfortable with than a slower shutter speed than you can use. You can work with noise, you can't do anything about blown focus.

And yes, scattering slaves around the room is a good way to go. If you aren't lighting for a specific fixed set shot, it's tricky to position the slaves, but, it can be done, and it helps. Radio triggers are important or every other camera in the room will be triggering your lights.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 24, 2012 11:40:14 AM PDT
I don't like your son's music, by the way.

No relation... He's Canadian; my family filtered into Michigan from Ohio/Indiana (we have a big gap in the genealogy -- left Germany and suddenly appear in the Midwest without passing through the eastern US <G>). The black sheep on my side of the family is Owen Bieber (United Auto Workers).

Forcing the 580ex II into full power manual mode would only have resulted in blowing out the highlights of the shiny/white wedding gown (even the auto shots show over-exposure warnings on the preview -- I expect the RAW to allow for recovery of most of that).

What I probably should have done is gone to M mode, with a shutter of 1/60s or faster, aperture f4 (my test shots of static subjects with P mode, where the flash is considered the main light, resulted in 1/60@f4). Since Canon's E-TTL II logic treats the flash as a fill light in that (M) mode, it should have properly exposed the subjects, but left the background dark&dank. In Av mode at f4, the logic was using fill flash on the subject, but long exposure for ambient background.

I'm still influenced by my film days, when the fastest film I used was 400ASA; so I tend to run digital cameras in lower ISO settings. The 50D does have an "auto ISO" mode BUT the auto range is too wide for my taste; if I could limit the high end I'd use it [though I think with a flash, auto ISO locks on 400].

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 24, 2012 12:37:05 PM PDT
It took me a lot of shots to open up to high ISO, after shooting microstock with a rebex XT. Noise was just not allowed, and the camera was noisy. Now I shoot sports with a 1dmk4. Noise is acceptable, and the camera can handle very high ISO with minimal noise anyway. I blew many shots trying to keep the ISO low, and ended up with motion blur and camera shake ruining pictures. I keep reminding myself that I have to explore every capability of the camera, find out everything it can and can not do. No point in having the beast if I use it like a rebel.

Posted on Sep 24, 2012 3:18:25 PM PDT
S. Owens says:
I tried my hand as an unofficial wedding photographer a while back at a cousin's wedding. I was using a T3 at the time (I've since gotten a 60D) and some new Sigma lenses (17-70 and 70-200) but didn't have a dedicated flash. Shooting a wedding certainly can be a challenge especially if you haven't tried it before and know nothing about the venues. Perhaps the best thing I did was I shot everything in RAW because I think I adjusted the white balance in every picture I took.

At the church position is everything and scouting to know where to be is a key. I got seated too far in back for my standard lens to work well and I had too many heads in the way. I also avoided using the flash during the ceremony for obvious reasons. Stayed a while after the ceremony when they started doing the group shots and couldn't use my flash for those either because it interfered with the official photographer's; staying out of their way doesn't make things easy either.

Shooting the reception was challenging because it was outside under a big tent during a thunderstorm! I know that most of the time I wish I had more reach then the 17-70 I had on the camera would provide but the two things that would have helped the most were a faster lens (the 17-70 is f4 after 50mm) and a good flash.

I shot enough photos and the bride was very happy with them, getting them a few days after the wedding instead of two months later doesn't hurt either, but I can give the pros four things that I didn't have.

1. Better equipment: I started was using a T3 but was building a lens farm with modest budget. Talking it one of the paid photographer (one of them was cool but I'm not sure the other one liked me) he did comment that starting with a lower end body and getting glass is usually a better choice then starting with a high end body and kit glass.

2. Better lighting control: I wasn't all that prepared for the lighting conditions (a bounce flash would have been great) but also don't like flashing photos in people's faces.

3. Creative control: It's got to be a lot easier getting great pictures when you can tell people what to do and have their focus be on you.

4. Experience: Now this is something that they earn by knowing what shots are desired and having taken them many times before under various conditions. I'd also throw post processing into here because I'm sure they could/would do things to the pictures they took that I'm not sure I'm ready to try doing or at least spend the time doing.

I can also pity the wedding photographer based on something I've previously read: Unlike a lot of other paid shoots a photographer often gets just ONE chance to make a good image because "going back and resetting" often isn't an option. Doing better next time also isn't an option when the person paying you expects you to do their shots right. Throw in some potential craziness and it is easy to feel some sympathy for those people.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 24, 2012 9:09:08 PM PDT

I probably had #1 and #2 over the official photographer (the back pack in the jeep had my 60mm Macro, 430EX II flash (slave-able to the 580), Manfrotto tripod, and a 42" silver/gold fold-up reflector... Oh, and a Lensbaby Composer, Sekonic flash-meter with incident and 1deg spot attachments.)

#3 and #4 is where I was out -- #3 meant the subjects weren't holding still, and #4 meant I should have forced a faster shutter speed and let the lens go wide open rather than forcing f4 aperture and letting the shutter go slow. I do believe the tonal qualities of letting the Canon flash logic run as "fill flash" was better than my test shots under Program mode (flash is main light).

I tried to time my shots in the posed series to go off /after/ I heard the official camera shutter fire -- and apologized for the one time I triggered early ("three, two, one" <click-click> <whoops>) and probably had my flash hit their shot.

Posted on Sep 25, 2012 10:53:37 AM PDT
S. Owens says:
During the formal shots the pros were using photo sensitive umbrella flashed. I originally thought they were remotes as one of their cameras had a transmitter in the hot shoe but one picture ruined that at which time I stopped with the flash. Someone else taking pictures didn't stop and I had one shot which was completely whited out and beyond saving and another that I could just make out after I adjusted the brightness all the way down.

I still need to find a flash but I managed a 60D and 50mm 1.4 for a great deal to help my equipment. It may not be a ff camera but I'm not about to spend 2G for a body unless I'm selling pictures.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 25, 2012 1:08:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 25, 2012 1:09:22 PM PDT
From Canon, the consensus first flash is the 430EX II. The lower numbered flashes are either rather underpowered, or lack features like auto-zoom, tilt, swivel. The 270 is just over half the Guide Number of the 430. Where the 430 can manage (at f4.0, ISO 100) a range of 10.7 meters (about 35 feet) in direct use with a lens equivalent of 105mm (~70mm on APS-C), the 270 is only usable to 6.8 meter (the built-in flash may reach to 3.25 meters, but doesn't have a zoom head to match field of view of the lens).

The added reach of the 580EX II doesn't justify the cost as a first flash. As a second flash it can be justified for as a master control unit allowing the 430 or other to be used as a remote slave. The newest Canon bodies do have the ability to use the built-in flash as a master (and may even be better as the main light is usually the remote off to the side, and the camera unit is used as a fill-light -- meaning a 580 is being operated at half or lower power levels <G>)

Posted on Sep 26, 2012 3:33:33 PM PDT
A professional wedding photographer was shooting with a REBEL??? Wow, ballsy.

I don't do weddings, but dang, had no idea I coulda made some dough using my first REBEL like that. I'm saving up for a 5D Mark III, so maybe I'll use my 7D to do some freaking weddings.


In reply to an earlier post on Sep 26, 2012 5:52:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 26, 2012 8:58:21 PM PDT
® says:
not sure what your beef is here, Dennis. How did the photos come out.

But wedding photographers are usually picked because of the style, scene or emotion they bring out. Usually the bride picks who she wants, the guy usually can care less. More or less the wedding photographer has enough technical skill to pull of the shots they are paid and picked for. So I see the questioning of technical skill and better equipment less relevant then the artist skills in the genre. Granted I would prefer to see a full frame camera to have confident, but you still see plenty of regular cameras in the field shooting weddings.

But kits lens, means that is a friend or they probably didn't paid too much for the official photographer. Everybody has a budget, more so like a high school couples getting married verse couples who are professional. Just say your wedding photos is a gift worth 2x more face value for free, and you don't have to buy any other wedding gift. Past on the wedding gift registry.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 26, 2012 7:13:26 PM PDT
Not sure how "professional" the official photographer was -- I have the impression they may have met at college. The official photographer /did/ have a checklist of shots that had to be made, and obviously had control over poses (that is, pausing the participants on the walk from the back room to the site of the ceremony, while I had to catch them on the move).

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 26, 2012 7:35:25 PM PDT
<blast -- hit a key and lost my reply>

No "beef" -- my goal was to just record my experience at this wedding, maybe giving something for the next time someone gets asked to be a wedding photographer.

Last year, the other niece was married in sweltering heat, with lots of sunlight (too much sun, in fact, I'd have had no chance for shallow depth of field <G>). This year I sought to be more, uhm, creative -- by locking the aperture to f4. While I knew from reading how E-TTL II behaves in Av, Tv, and M (flash exposes main subject, Av/Tv auto exposure set for background ambient) I'd never /experienced/ the effect... And the lighting at this time of year was just too dim for my instincts [ISO 100, even though the 50D is probably great up to ISO400 and maybe usable at ISO800).

But yes -- the official photographer(s) had a pair of Rebels with what looked like kit lenses, one of which had a way too small flash with StoFen diffuser tossing a lot of light to the sides and back (I relied upon a LumiQuest Pocket Bouncer which has two advantages -- it raises the light source by around nearly a foot over direct flash, and produces a light source over four times the bare flash [but does have the disadvantage of the flash going to wide-angle, reducing effective range -- though with a 580 flash, and short sight lines, probably a moot point <G>]).

Not enough "good" shots to be used as a gift -- besides I'd already purchased wedding gifts months ago. A pair of Platinum "Modern Maki-e" fountain pens and two bottles of ink ("modern", in this case, meaning "the base lacquer design was silk-screened, only the final details were painted by hand"). $300 over-all.

Posted on Sep 26, 2012 11:04:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 26, 2012 11:12:51 PM PDT
Michael C says:
I've found the 50D very usable at ISO 800 and even a little beyond. There are some very good tools available for dealing with noise in processing.
The newer rebels (other than the T3) have sensors that produce higher image quality, including low light/high ISO performance, than the older x0Ds and the early 1 series. The T2i, T3i, and T4i share the exact same sensor as the 60D (which by the way performs better in low light than the 50D). They also double as video cameras that, with the right lenses, produce output better than dedicated video cams priced much higher. The biggest thing they don't have when considering them for use at paid gigs, AFAIC, is AF microadjustment to dial your lenses in before the event. Even the 60D doesn't have it, although the 50D did. And they handle slower than current 5DII (barely slower in some categories)/5DIII/7D/1D bodies: lower frame rate, shallower buffer, slower focusing, longer mirror blackout, not to mention fewer customizable options and generally deeper menus to change settings. The viewfinders are also smaller.
Having said that, for a wedding I would much rather use a T3i or T4i with fast L zooms (or quality fast primes, L or not) than a 7D or even a 5DII with slow lenses. Some of the high quality Sigma primes recently introduced (30mm, 50mm) or Canon primes like the EF 50mm f/1.4 could be mistaken at a glance for an EF 18-55mm kit lens. In either case, or even using something like a 1D X, D800, D3, or D4, off camera flash will be crucial for the posed portraits to have that "pro" look. When it comes to wedding photography I think it is more about photographer skill (technical & people), lenses, post processing, and camera bodies in that order.

Posted on Sep 26, 2012 11:53:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 26, 2012 11:56:15 PM PDT
Michael C says:
Dennis, according the 50D owner's manual (p.107), only Av (and not Tv or M) uses slow synch flash. If you want to override this in Av mode you can do so in the custom menu settings. Also see the note on page 109 re: Auto Lighting Optimizer setting. It should be off in the type of shooting situation you describe. If the subject is moving towards you setting the flash to 2nd curtain sync will hold the flash until right before the shutter curtain closes when the subject is nearer to you and the "blur trail" will be behind (and thus mostly hidden by the flash exposed subject) instead of in front of the subject (instructions on p. 111).

Posted on Sep 27, 2012 11:11:41 AM PDT
T. Campbell says:
When I did weddings (which was a long time ago) we brought all the light with us. The camera (a Hasselblad 500CM with an 80mm standard prime) had a very large flash bracket with a Lumadyne flash (manual), and the sidelight (mounted atop a mono-pod which is held by an assistant) had a Norman flash. The flash heads are considerably larger and more powerful than even the most powerful dedicated hot-shoe type flashes. The flashes are powered by giant rechargeable battery packs which are worn by the photographer and assistant hanging on shoulder-straps.

Everything is manual, there is no TTL (you do everything by distance and since the lens on the camera doesn't "zoom" you can instantly judge distance based on the "framing" of the shot (e.g. if I frame up a subject so that I'm getting them from the waist-up then that's a "half shot" and I'll need to set the aperture to f/16. A full-length shot would be f/8. A group shot would be f/5.6. (that's for the specific amount of light from our manual flashes -- this wouldn't translate to just any other flash without doing testing.)

For closer shots we'd use a shoot-through umbrella (either as a reflector or as a shoot-through), but you do lose 1 stop of light through it. The umbrella is hand-held in front of the side-light by the assistant and usually the main-flash is bounced or twisted to the side.

The point is, no venue is ever too dark because we brought enough lighting and the lighting is all portable (no light stands to setup and tear down.)

Anyone in wedding photography NEEDS to invest in the right lighting and the right lenses (can't use the flash "during" the ceremony but you can before or after.)

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 27, 2012 11:32:54 AM PDT
only Av (and not Tv or M) uses slow synch flash.

Well, Av is the only option where the camera is setting the shutter speed anyway, so that's a tautology <G>

Ah... The infamous Custom Functions -- which tend to get set once during the first few days of studying the manual and trying out the camera, and then get forgotten. Doesn't help that my older 20D equivalent only supported "auto" and "1/250s"; didn't have the "1/250s - 1/60s" restriction option, so I left the 50D is the comparable setting ("auto").

50D has now been set to the 1/250 - 1/60 mode; I'd rather forget about the option and have dim still-life backgrounds <G>

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 27, 2012 11:38:51 AM PDT
The point is, no venue is ever too dark because we brought enough lighting and the lighting is all portable (no light stands to setup and tear down.)

Well, if I /had/ been an official photographer, I'd likely not have had to worry about motion blur... I'd have had the camera mounted on a tripod, and the subjects paused for the shot... Could have had a second flash on wireless/IR remote... And I'd likely have pulled my hot-light set out of storage for the posed group shots. I did have the tripod, second flash, Sekonic flash-meter, and a 42" gold/silver reflector in the Jeep.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 27, 2012 7:21:56 PM PDT
Michael C says:
But the point is that in Tv mode with E-TTL II on the flash is metered as the main light source, not fill. The camera selects an aperture based on the amount of light supplied by the flash, not on the amount of ambient light. In P mode, by the way, the flash is metered as fill in bright light and as primary in darker light.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 27, 2012 9:52:04 PM PDT
But the point is that in Tv mode with E-TTL II on the flash is metered as the main light source, not fill.

No... In Tv Mode the camera will adjust the aperture to expose the background and the flash is still fill light.

"Tv (shutter priority) mode flash.

In this mode the camera lets you change the shutter speed. It then automatically chooses an aperture setting to expose the background correctly. Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system. In other words, the camera always works in fill flash mode when it's in Tv mode - it always tries to expose the background adequately, unlike P mode.


Av (aperture priority) mode flash.

Av mode lets you set the depth of field by specifying the lens aperture. The camera then chooses a shutter speed ranging from 30 seconds to the camera's X-sync speed, in order to expose the background correctly. If that means the shutter speed is some really low value so that you need to use a tripod to avoid camera-shake blur, so be it. In dark conditions, therefore, Av mode works in slow sync mode.

Flash duration (flash output) is determined by the flash metering system. Like Tv mode the camera always works in fill flash mode when in Av mode.


Manual (M) exposure mode flash.

In manual exposure mode you specify both the aperture and shutter speed, and your exposure settings will determine how the background (ambient lighting) is exposed. The subject, however, can still be illuminated by the automatic flash metering system since the flash can automatically calculate flash output levels for you. This is a marked contrast to the olden days, when photographers would carry around little flash exposure tables with them in order to work out manual flash settings.

Posted on Sep 27, 2012 10:49:07 PM PDT
Pantera says:
I have shot over 700 weddings in Palo Alto, California (I am now traveling around the world full-time, writing books and teaching photography) I shot ALL of the weddings on film and am now 100% digital. Here's my advice: have back-ups of equipment and shoot at a high ISO (this is a huge gift for photographers at weddings) I could not do this with film. You can shoot decent shots up to 3200 ISO with a high quality camera but not for printing large photos. Most people don't want 30" x 40" prints of their weddings. Use Bounce Lighting when you need to use flash. Auto-focus is amazing. I shot all my weddings with manual focus and manual settings - I learned what worked and tested my light with a light meter. I am fast. Definitely have the extra equipment. I will never forget the wedding when my Hasselblad stopped working and I had to send my assistant out to buy a new one before the wedding started! Wedding photography is a BIG responsibility - oh and don't pity the wedding photographer, I made between $3000 and $10000 on each wedding.
Have fun, sending a shout-out hello from Thailand, near Burma.
Check out my free e-book, Secrets of Stunning PHotographs on my web site.
And my latest book in Kindle here on Amazon:
Kitten Heels in Kathmandu: Adventures of a Female Vagabond Kitten Heels in Kathmandu, Adventures of a Female Vagabond]]

Posted on Sep 27, 2012 11:17:17 PM PDT
Michael C says:
The Tv section of your link was written at least a decade before the 50D existed, and it is correct if using an early EOS body. The flash models cited in that section are from the late 1980's and early 1990's using the A-TTL system. It may have also been correct for EOS models using E-TTL before E-TTL II was introduced in 2004. E-TTL II was the first time focus distance as reported by the lens was included in the flash calculation. If I can find the manual for one of my old film bodies I will check on E-TTL. They probably changed this because in practice the selected shutter speed was usually too fast for even the maximum aperture to properly expose the background. For the 50D and any other Canon body since 2004 using E-TTL II beginning with the 1D mkII the information in your link is not correct. See the 50D manual page 113. Flashes using systems prior to E-TTL or E-TTL II can only be used in Av and M mode.

Posted on Sep 28, 2012 3:48:46 AM PDT
zanypoet says:
@ Pantera

Nice to hear from a pro happy doing her thing ... :)


In reply to an earlier post on Sep 28, 2012 7:08:25 AM PDT
The camera manual doesn't give sufficient details -- Page 113 only covers what is possible with a pre-EX flash. Page 110 under Tv only states that the flash exposure will be set to be compatible with the automatically set aperture -- without indicating how the aperture is selected.

{I have the dead tree version of that link -- if the information for Tv is /that/ far off it is a serious lack, as the book came out in 2010 and lists EOS bodies up to the 7D of 2009... The Magic Lantern Guide isn't that helpful either, as it doesn't explain how an aperture would be chosen either...}

Posted on Sep 28, 2012 8:47:31 AM PDT
Michael C says:
David Busch's 5DII guide doesn't add anything to what is in the manual re: Tv mode either. Prior to E-TTL II when focus distance data supplied by the lens was added to the equation, the only thing the camera had to go on was reading the preflash. I'm fairly certain the information in that link is dated and is accurate for A-TTL and most likely E-TTL but not E-TTL II. It looks like some of the other sections may be a little more up to date.

The way P mode exposes the subject with E-TTL II: The meter reads the entire scene and chooses a shutter speed between 1/60-1/250sec. It then selects an aperture that will allow proper exposure of the entire scene if available. If an aperture wide enough is available it will use the flash only as fill to properly expose the subject. If a wide enough aperture is not available it will properly expose the subject with the flash as the primary light source. In either case, once the pre-flash fires (microseconds before the mirror starts moving out of the way) and is reflected back to the exposure meter the camera calculates how much flash is needed to properly illuminate the area around the focus point selected, factors in the focus distance to fine tune the flash duration needed, and fires the flash while the shutter is open. Because P mode will not use a speed lower than 1/60sec when a flash is active, if you are in low light the background will usually be dark and the flash will fire to expose the subject properly. In Tv mode you select the shutter speed and the camera tries to find an aperture that works for the entire scene. Unless you have chosen a really slow shutter speed, in low light there will not be a wide enough aperture to do this so the camera allows the background to be dark and the subject will be properly exposed by the flash as the primary light source. So in the real world it is kind of a moot point unless you have a lens with an aperture so wide you can shoot in low light at 1/60 sec without needing much flash power.

A lot of people forget that the E-TTL II will automatically provide correct flash exposure in M mode as well. If I'd been in your shoes at the wedding I would have been on manual mode with Tv set to around 1/60-1/80 sec, depending on the angle from which you were shooting the procession. If they were coming straight at me I would have bumped it up to about 1/100-1/125 sec. I would have set aperture at f/2.8 unless that lens is really bad on the edges wide open. Then I would have set the ISO high enough to get enough ambient light for the background to look decent even of not properly exposed. For the bride and anyone else wearing very light colors I would have dialed flash exposure compensation down to about -2/3 to keep from blowing the details of the dress. You can't set exposure compensation when in manual mode, but you can use flash exposure compensation. And I would have enabled second curtain sync.
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