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"Voter ID, which is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done."


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Showing 51-75 of 249 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:02:45 AM PDT
PF says:
How? I don't know. PA's Secretary of State certified the roll of disenfranchised voters, which shows a clear tendency towards higher disenfranchised people in counties with high minority populations.

The facts are bare minimum, with no data showing if there are valid state photo ID centers within a reasonable distance and along public transportation routes in minority neighborhoods, or if there's a more discriminatory reason as well. We just know Philadelphia has 18% of voters disenfranchised, comprising 44% African Americans. Secretary Aechile didn't elaborate past the raw data.

All of the counties above 10% are in the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh municipal regions, the only areas in the state where greater than 15% of the population is minority. The other 57 counties with at least 85% white demographics are all under the statewide 9% average of disenfranchised voters according to PCN. That's the PA version of C-Span that covers the General Assembly proceedings.

The Commonwealth Court is holding a hearing on July 25 as this clearly does not meet either state or federal law on a fair and just application of voter laws. 6 different entities brought lawsuits, including the bias-neutral Commitee of Seventy, PA Common
Cause and the mostly non-partisan League of Women's Voters that skews moderate on all but reproductive issues. It's not just the more liberal advocacy groups like the ACLU filing lawsuits.

The data is hard to dispute. Out of the 758,000, you'd expect about 12% of that figure to be minorities based on PA statewide demographics. But it's estimated by the Commonwealth Court blog that it's 22.3% minorities on the list. The Commonwealth Court judge has not yet ruled on whether the source of that 22.3% figure is accurate enough to be admitted into evidence. We might not know the source of that number until the hearing itself.

Posted on Jul 10, 2012 10:15:32 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:19:23 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
You know, its funny...people will fight and complain about gun laws where the make new rules, but for this they do not complain. I think anything that makes it difficult for the citizenry to do something as constitutionally needed as VOTING, they wouldn't like. If people ~think~ there is wide-spread illegal voting (which has never been shown to be a problem...only a hypothetical one), then address those particular problems. I don't think there has EVER been a tried case of a voter impersonating someone else.

We only get about 30% on average turn-out as it is (that is only of REGISTERED voters)...it doesn't seem like we need to reduce participation even further. Unless of course there are people you don't WANT to vote....or don't really care if they have to carry the burden of proof. I guess you are just presumed ineligible until you prove you are. Doesn't that seem backwards?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:17:20 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
[You know, its funny...people will fight and complain about gun laws where the make new rules, but for this they do not complain. I think anything that makes it difficult for the citizenry to do something as constitutionally needed as VOTING, they wouldn't like]

The funny thing about your comment is that: gun laws already require ID. The power to vote is more dangerous then a firearm.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:17:37 AM PDT
PF says:
District 14 had a 5% voter turnout this past May. Hard to miss all those dead guys and illegals when only 15 out of 318 registered voters turned up at our local polling place the day I was a poll worker. I knew them all by sight, just like most years.

Posted on Jul 10, 2012 10:18:46 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:20:51 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
I know... and people had a FIT!

edit: heeey, maybe we can use that argument "the BAD guys are still gonna break the law, so why punish the REST of us!!??"

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:22:00 AM PDT
PF says:
PA's previous law also required ID, in the form of a Social Security number. People who don't drive and live far from a photo ID center could just write it on an absentee ballot.

My mom, widow of a decorated Navy officer and a Republican party secretary, had voted that way since the Eisenhower administration. Now the law requires her to send in a photocopy of a state issued photo ID, which she never needed before. Hers expired years ago, and it was very expensive to get the documentation, medical support, and transportation an 84 year old disabled lady needs.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:25:43 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
She should already have federal ID, or easily have access to one as a widow of a vet.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:28:30 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:33:47 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
I think without a photo ID, a person can STILL vote absentee using a Social Security number. I THINK. I think it is up to the county board of elections to decide if that voter is eligible or not. I am not sure how you know what they decide.
http://www.votespa.com/portal/server.pt/community/how_to_vote/13515/voting_by_absentee_ballot/

Trouble is...not every older person has access to that form or the rules. ~I~ am having trouble figuring out how they decide and even how you learn of the decision. Or even if the absentee voting info page is up to date. I guess AFTER the election you can find out if you were counted or not. Nice. The Social Security number thing won't count at a polling place. And not everyone is really eligible for absentee status...unless you lie a little and say you can't get there. Some people won't do that. And they shouldn't have to.

further: If your only way of voting with SS# is by absentee, wouldn't that constitute a "tax" because you have to pay for the stamps to mail the application and ballot?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:30:58 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:31:42 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
Some photo ids don't count. They have to be current and have expiration dates. In particular, not all federal IDs (or college IDs or nursing home IDs) have the expiration date.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:32:44 AM PDT
PF says:
They can, *IF* the last 4 digits of the SSN match to a photo record in the state or federal databases. We tried filling out a permanent absentee application for mom, since it really is onerous and medically risky to remove her from her respirator long enough to snap the photo.

Her application was rejected because her driver's license expired long before databases or electronic records were a gleam in a nerd's eye. Her SSN didn't match an eligible photo ID, so she either couldn't vote or had to get one.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:34:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:35:04 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
They don't have expiration dates because they don't expire, therefor are 'current'. Some states have IDs that don't expire after the person reaches a certain age. Military IDs do count for legal identification purposes. I know that much based on my own ID training.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:37:28 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:40:33 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
Thank you...I didn't know that!!! What are they supposed to do?!! That is TERRIBLE!! And many people are indeed being cared for in homes so there isn't some "facility" ID. I am going to have to ask around to see if there are some sort of "loopholes" for people like that. Can a representative from your city/township issue some sort of ID? Can a US congressman/Senator's office issue them for constituents (they can come to your house if needed.)

edit: I guess my ideas won't work...unless she is an employee for the Senator/congressman

-- Pennsylvania driver's license or non-driver's license photo ID (IDs are valid for voting purposes 12 months past expiration date)
-- Valid U.S. passport
-- U.S. military ID - active duty and retired military (a military or veteran's ID must designate an expiration date or designate that the expiration date is indefinite). Military dependents' ID must contain an expiration date
-- Employee photo ID issued by Federal, PA, County or Municipal government
-- Photo ID cards from an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning
-- Photo ID cards issued by a Pennsylvania care facility, including long-term care facilities, assisted living residences or personal care homes

There is no provision for people who don't live in those care facilities.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:37:34 AM PDT
ET says:
For Philadelphia voters:
an ID document (does not have to be a card) issued by a care facility is acceptable, provided the ID contains a NAME, a PHOTO, and an EXPIRATION DATE that is CURRENT.

If you are a registered Pennsylvania voter and do not have any acceptable form of ID for voting purposes, you can obtain a FREE PENNDOT PHOTO ID CARD at a PennDOT Driver's License Center.

Read more:http://phillyelection.com/pa_voter_id_law_-_care.pdf

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:39:14 AM PDT
PF says:
It's already been discussed here many times that VA IDs aren't eligible in PA. Passport, active duty military ID, or federal employee IDs are the only ones PA's new law allows. Her passport expired long ago as she was not well enough to travel so no sense renewing it.

When I renew my passport next year, I'll have to renew under the tougher DHS standards, and I'll face the same challenges. I never got a state ID since I don't see or breathe well enough to drive and my passport was always good enough. Now to renew under the tougher new standards I'll need a certified copy of my original state-issued birth record. If I could go back in time to pre-Hurricane Agnes, no problem.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:41:21 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:42:49 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
[It's already been discussed here many times that VA IDs aren't eligible in PA]

PA law-
U.S. military ID - active duty and retired military (a military or veteran's ID must designate an expiration date or designate that the expiration date is indefinite). Military dependents' ID must contain an expiration date

Posted on Jul 10, 2012 10:43:38 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
New Voter ID Law

Photo ID required for November 2012 Election

ALL voters will be required to show a photo ID before voting at a polling place

All photo IDs must contain an expiration date that is current, unless noted otherwise. Acceptable IDs include:

Photo IDs issued by the U.S. Federal Government or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:
Pennsylvania driver's license or non-driver's license photo ID (IDs are valid for voting purposes 12 months past expiration date)
Valid U.S. passport
U.S. military ID - active duty and retired military (a military or veteran's ID must designate an expiration date or designate that the expiration date is indefinite). Military dependents' ID must contain an expiration date

Employee photo ID issued by Federal, PA, County or Municipal government
Photo ID cards from an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning
Photo ID cards issued by a Pennsylvania care facility, including long-term care facilities, assisted living residences or personal care homes

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:43:48 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:45:35 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
That's interesting. My DH has a higher level job in the federal government. When he started, he didn't have a "REAL" birth certificate either. It was a "record of live birth" which apparently isn't the same. I had the same document (and had trouble getting a certain passport.)

I wonder if you can "work" for a federal office (like the Senator/Congressman thing) for one event on one day. I wonder what the requirements are for that sort of "subcontracting" type work????? Are you an "employee"...can they carry laminators around to home-bound constituents and print them an ID????? (It didn't say "permanent" or "full-time" employee.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:44:53 AM PDT
PF says:
We wrote to Jim Gerlach, our US Congressman, Pat Toomey and Bob Casey in the US Senate, Tom Corbett, Pat Browne, and Gary Day in Harrisburg before we shelled out all the money we needed. None of them could find a valid alternative that suited the new law.

So we hired a private duty nurse in case she stopped breathing, rented an 8 hour oxygen tank and flow regulator, paid $64 for Paratransit to come and get her, and shelled out the $27 in Harrisburg fees plus shipping to get her Mississippi birth certificate certified in PA. Got her to the DMV, with much stress, hassle, expense, and several days on strict bedrest for her to recover.

She worked for the Republican party for decades, and she's planning to vote straight ticket Democrat for the first time in her life. She really feels betrayed by her leaders.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:47:23 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
Send them the BILL for all that!!! I wonder if you could sue them for the "tax" they imposed on you....(which is illegal for voting.) The state of PA did not help you find an alternative...so I think they should pay you.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:48:59 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 10:49:44 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
If ~I~ were the mayor or something, I would have "hired" your mom for a day to stuff envelopes or monitor a cell phone or something, and given her an ID as an employee!! ha ha!! (I didn't see the words "paid employee" anywhere either.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:49:35 AM PDT
PF says:
Clearly your ID training wasn't in PA. It clearly states on the PA website

"
Photo IDs issued by the U.S. Federal Government or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:
Pennsylvania driver's license or non-driver's license photo ID (IDs are valid for voting purposes 12 months past expiration date)
Valid U.S. passport
U.S. military ID - active duty and retired military (a military or veteran's ID must designate an expiration date or designate that the expiration date is indefinite). Military dependents' ID must contain an expiration date

Employee photo ID issued by Federal, PA, County or Municipal government
Photo ID cards from an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning
Photo ID cards issued by a Pennsylvania care facility, including long-term care facilities, assisted living residences or personal care homes"

Like you said, spousal or retired military ID's don't expire. PA knows that full well. Over 1 million of the 8.2 million registered voters in PA are retired military. People fought this law for 2 years, providing supporting evidence that it would disenfranchise vets and their dependents. The governor and the assembly passed it anyway.

If that's not planned voter suppression, it's gross incompetence.

Posted on Jul 10, 2012 10:51:29 AM PDT
Good grief, you conservatives are really grasping for straws these days.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 10:54:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 11:04:14 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
[If that's not planned voter suppression, it's gross incompetence. ]

I'd have to say you are correct in this instance. PA legislators are to be subject of the will of the people. The question is, it may be the 'rest of your neighborhood block' that voted against your mother in this issue, via democratic majority.

Wasn't the PA voting law enacted through a vote?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 11:07:19 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 11:08:18 AM PDT
Nanciejeanne says:
well, they don't "sell" the voters on voter suppression. They sweep them up in some sort of other issue, then slip these things in under the guise of "cheaters" (which no one has ever produced.) And the majority of voters won't be impacted much, so they don't care....or they just don't go to vote at all and just grumble silently (since their voice is now taken away.) So yes, it is the "will" of the people, but I feel it is a covert "will" ("oh yeah, we campaigned on "taxes" and jobs, but we are gonna do this first.") And the voters forget...the next election they will be bombarded with flashy out-of-state-funded commercials touting abortion and jobs and and and....and they eat it up....again (even though the last time they voted for those "issues" nothing changed with them anyway.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 11:13:43 AM PDT
Shain Edge says:
Still, these were your elected state representatives.
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Discussion in:  Politics forum
Participants:  22
Total posts:  249
Initial post:  Jul 10, 2012
Latest post:  Aug 3, 2012

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