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Gutsy call? Not at all. Former Attorney general Says Kill-Osama Memo Was "Heavily Lawyered" To Throw All Blame on Admiral McRaven If It Failed.


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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 8:50:03 PM PDT
Lettuce Prey says:
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Posted on May 7, 2012 8:26:05 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 8:11:56 PM PDT
KBW
I'm not going to get into the gutsy or non gutsy argument as I think it is just a diversion that won't get anyone anywhere.

But I cannot for the life of me see how a failed mission wouldn't have gone viral.
It would be one thing if this attack were in the Afghan wilds - maybe it could have been kept quiet. But failing in Pakistani airspace? A failed mission that resulted in dead US troops being paraded around the streets of Pakistan? No way in the world that doesn't go viral.
Sorry but if this op went belly up it would have been huge. (IMO)

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 8:06:10 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 8:01:37 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 8:01:01 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:56:18 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:50:54 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:49:42 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:43:08 PM PDT
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Posted on May 7, 2012 7:33:58 PM PDT
Bad Grandpa says:
It's true, I read it on www.everythingobamaeverdidiswrong.com.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:32:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 7:32:40 PM PDT
Capatain,
Actually I don't agree.
Does Mukasey have any experience, any experience at all in this sort of decision making process? His 9 months as a lame duck AG? What decisions like this did he ever face in real time? Does he have any experience with military operational matters? His time as a judge?

I trust my friend's intelligence and judgment. He's hammered Obama on many ocassion when he felt the situation warranted, at least now that he's retired and capable of talking.
That's why I asked him before I posted here. He was involved in just these sorts of operations and he speaks (not me) with authority.

So I'm not buying what Mukasey is selling here.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:27:14 PM PDT
I'll make this easy for you little fella. I'll break the statements down point by point and, based upon your in-depth knowldedge of the chain of command and upper-level military decision making, you can point out the errors in his analysis. Easy enough, right?

1. "The President made the call, named an operational commander, turned him loose on the problem, and told him to report back if conditions changed significantly."

Okay. Based on your experience (you do have experience, right?) what in Pannetta's memo belies the above statement? In fact the memo suports this contention if you aren't blinded by Obama derangment syndrome.

2. "the fact that the memo was made is pretty standard - when decisions are communicated by phone, face-to-face, etc, most significant players will immediately write an MFR to document the fact."

Again, based on your experience in the military and command decision making, what evidence or experience do you have to suggst that this statement is not, in fact, correct? Your desire that it not be so doesn't count. If you are relying on Mukasey I will point out that unless you count the time he spent in Giuliani and Kerik's hip pocket his time in the military = 0 (as in ZERO).

3. "if someone is trying to paint this as Obama shifting things to McRaven, they don't understand how the chain works."

Do you know how the chain of command works, and if you claim so, where did you acquire this knowledge?

4. As reflected in this memo, Obama had already made the tough call. He didn't give McRaven a choice to raid or not to raid - he had already said 'go,' and left the specifics to McRaven.

What in the memo contradicts this statement?

5. The final part is also pretty standard. Say, for example, that a last-minute UAV recon revealed that Kayani had entered the compound. McRaven would have been expected to notify Obama and await a new decision.

What knowledge do you have that contradicts this statement apart from your desire that it not be so?

6. Obama made the decision, named an operational commander, gave that commander the freedom to decide the raid's details, and turned him loose with the understanding that if ground truth changed enough to change the Presdident's understanding of the risks, those changes would be reported back to him.

Again, what evidence or knowledge do you have that contradicts this statement?

7. The key is that Obama left the "operational" decisions to McRaven; in other words, Obama made the call that the raid would happen - that wasn't up to McRaven - but McRaven was given the freedom to decide which night, at what time of night, with what force, under which rules of engagement, etc - without having to run back to Obama for permission at every step.

Again, what knowledge or experience do you have that contradicts this statement?

8. Any senior leader, military or civilian, will write a memo like this when given important instructions orally.

Upon what factual basis do you disagree with this statement? None I expect.

Posted on May 7, 2012 7:15:49 PM PDT
Captain says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:05:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 7:12:40 PM PDT
So tell me.
Based on your extensive military experience and knowledge, what exactly is it about the Major's opinion that you find factually inaccurate?

Or is calling me a liar simly a desparate response from someone who just got totally pwnd?

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:03:57 PM PDT
You are full of crap.

Is that all you have little fella, calling me a liar?

My friend is real and you are talking out of your behind.

Posted on May 7, 2012 7:02:04 PM PDT
Lettuce Prey says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 7:01:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 7:03:04 PM PDT
S. Evans says:
Leonard Fleisig says: "It did not take much work to get a real military perspective on this.
Wonder why none of the high powered bloggers pushing this didn't bother?"

My guess is that they don't know anyone in the military who trusts them enough to say anything. I have a long-time cyber friend, also a major who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, who agrees with your guy on this. Like your guy, he's also a conservative and not an Obama fan. And as is true with the best of our military guys/gals, he's honest to a fault.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 6:26:53 PM PDT
It did not take much work to get a real military persective on this.
Wonder why none of the high powered bloggers pushing this didn't bother?

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 5:49:55 PM PDT
Thanks S.E.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 5:28:08 PM PDT
It is astonishing that after 9/11, Tora Bora, and Iraq that conservatives think they have any leg to stand on in terms of national security, but these guys have absolutely no shame.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 5:22:36 PM PDT
S. Evans says:
@Leonard... Excellent post. Thanks for asking your friend and posting his response.

I find it endlessly fascinating that from the time I was first aware of politics (50+ yrs. ago), Democrats/liberals were accused of being soft and weak. Conservatives, on the other hand, were painted as hawkish and war-like. Conservatives LOVE war and battle, especially the ones who are careful to stay as far away from it as they can get. They also love to critique Dem. presidents -- especially if the Presidents haven't served in the military. This makes them somehow unfit to be commander in chief, in their minds.

I think your friend summed up the perfect CiC in his message: "...demands good information, makes a call - then gets the hell out of the way. "

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 5:01:31 PM PDT
Rev. Otter says:
<<by any rational standard>>

found yer problem.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 4:54:14 PM PDT
This sort of stuff is designed for people who are prepared to acceppt it ab initio. If they were liberals they'd be called knee-jerk. But my friend has been in the trenches and in war rooms and knows from first-hand experience how it works. And he calls a spade a spade as you would expect from a career soldier.

Will this matter to the splutterers? Nah. Who cares what someone with knowledge thinks when you can get off on your daily two-minute hate. Sad.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 4:49:59 PM PDT
Thanks Leonard, that was really an interesting and informed take, and really the folks trying to spin this against the President are working backwards from the ideological premise that if Obama did it than it must somehow be wrong, or cowardly etc.

Seems by any rational standard Obama handled it as one would hope, he made the call and let McRaven handle the operational details. Does anyone doubt that if the mission had failed that the President wouldn't have taken the heat for it? It's beyond childish.
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Discussion in:  Politics forum
Participants:  24
Total posts:  140
Initial post:  May 7, 2012
Latest post:  May 9, 2012

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