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Dr. Robert Eisenman and the END of the Christian religion


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Initial post: Feb 17, 2013 10:42:49 PM PST
Dr. Eisenman is the one who broke the Vatican Ecole' Biblique's monopoly of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and then correctly interpreted them to show Paul is the "Spouter of Lying" and James is the "Righteous Teacher", whom Paul THROWS from the Temple steps, breaking his legs (in period historical sources), finally having him killed in 62 CE by an angry mob stoning him. Let's get on with it and get the world on board, once and for all up-to-speed and repentant for the millenia of AntiSemitic nonsense and phony Christianizing that this charade has fostered. I propose a multimedia presentation, maybe like that ridiculous movie Mel Gibson did, only for real this time, with REAL history. Anyone interested?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 10:12:22 AM PST
Celsus says:
sahansdal

I'd sure be interested to see a documentary on the subject.

Posted on Feb 18, 2013 10:41:20 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 18, 2013 10:43:16 AM PST
The end of Christian religion. It is going to be a slow death. I can imagine that 100 years from now, it will be a minority of 10%-20% which is still hanging on to Christianity in the United States with an even lower percentage in Europe. It probably will be higher in other parts of the world, but also in steady decline. It might just about be all gone in 200 years except small pockets of believers scattered around the world.

This is speculation based upon the trend. There will always be superstition and a willingness to believe in the extraordinary as long as there are people on this Earth. There are plenty of gullible people who are willing to give their children the belief virus. Religion relies on it to survive.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 12:33:29 PM PST
Rubedo says:
I propose a multimedia presentation, maybe like that ridiculous movie Mel Gibson did, only for real this time, with REAL history. Anyone interested?

There is plenty on youtube, in fact who has time to sort it out?

Posted on Feb 18, 2013 2:50:46 PM PST
Ambulocetus says:
If you think that facts and rational arguments will remove even a tenth of religious folks from their beliefs, you're deluding yourself. Just look at young-earth creationists, Raelian saucer cultists, and people who think that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 3:17:03 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Mind, I think you're right about a small percentage clinging to Christianity within a hundred years. After all, we still have Jains and a few Zoroastrians, even a couple of Shakers, if they're still around. It's interesting that the longest surviving and still robust religions are the non-monotheistic, including Hinduism and Buddhism.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 3:41:46 PM PST
brunumb says:
Scientific Mind: "The end of Christian religion. It is going to be a slow death."

Deities evolve just like living things. The gods that 'exist' today all evolved from a common ancestor. Changes to the environment and natural selection ensured that gods with certain advantageous characteristics would survive. In the future, the selection process may involve human intervention to the extent that the Christian God may gain or lose particular traits that will allow him to survive. For example, the attribute of omniscience seems to be a weakness that is resulting in the demise of God in some populations. Should God somehow shed this detrimental trait he may regain a foothold.

Posted on Feb 18, 2013 9:52:00 PM PST
I. Dunn says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 10:29:25 PM PST
Astrocat says:
The gods we've created through the ages have survived only as long as we've nourished them, worshipped them, given them place in our homes, continued to pray to them and sacrifice to them. When we stop doing that they dissipate, they atrophy and fade away. The monotheistic gods will eventually be gone, just as Zeus and Minerva, Aphrodite and Poseidon are gone, but there will be little godlets, remnants of them that are still carried about in the minds of a few. For instance, we still have Ares, the god of war, and the planets that are named for many of the gods keep reminding us of them, so they get a little bit of attention, perhaps enough to keep them alive in one way or another.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 10:49:02 PM PST
You're probably right. My interest is in establishing the truth on it for the yet unborn and the young.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2013 10:50:19 PM PST
People paid good money to go see "The Passion of Christ". It was based entirely on mythology.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 12:27:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 19, 2013 12:28:59 PM PST
Rubedo says:
sahansdal says:
People paid good money to go see "The Passion of Christ". It was based entirely on mythology.

Some myths are worth living by
Myths to Live By

Persuasion and Healing: A Comparative Study of Psychotherapy

But thanks for the tip on Eisenson. I started
James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls I: The Historical James, Paul the Enemy, and Jesus' Brothers as Apostles

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 1:32:36 PM PST
Roeselare says:
why are vaccines given to such young children?

We admit that the growing brain is so complex that we don't understand how it develops.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 2:13:59 PM PST
DD-LP
Wow! You really stepped into wacko-land with your mention of vaccines in the context of other looney obsessions. Good luck.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 2:49:12 PM PST
Joe W says:
So they don't die or get maimed by disease.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 2:51:44 PM PST
Joe W says:
I was about to laugh at the implication that anti vaxxers are loonier than Raelians, but I think you are right.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 19, 2013 9:22:10 PM PST
Ha. He owes me one. Enjoy. I know him personally. He's a very smart guy, and incredibly well versed. Email me at yahoo, tell me what you think of it.

Posted on Feb 19, 2013 9:28:31 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 19, 2013 9:31:08 PM PST
Since we need something to feed on here, look this up: Acts 8:26 ff and Josephus, Antiquities, Book XX, ch.2. Queen Candace, and the "eunuch" treasurer from Ethiopia (where there were no harems, like in Adiabene, to be guarded by eunuchs) converting with help from 'Philip' to Christianity was really based on Queen HELEN and sons Monobazus and Izates from Adiabene converting to JUDAISM, hence the ribald parody of CIRCUMCISION of the 'eunuch'. This is just ONE example of many in the NT REVERSAL of real theology and events from the writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls from QUMRAN, the home of the refugee first TRUE 'Christians' after PAUL had chased them there from Jerusalem.

Paul actually THREW James off the Temple steps in Clement's Recognitions, ch. LXX. This is parodied in the suicide of 'Judas' (fictional) in Acts 1, and also in the Devil's Temptation of Christ.

James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls I: The Historical James, Paul the Enemy, and Jesus' Brothers as Apostles

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 4:07:59 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 20, 2013 6:21:11 AM PST
Scientific Mind: Barring some unforseeable calamity - i think so too , though not just a prolonged, agonizing death but a spectacular and transformational one with awesome displays of chinese fireworks " And the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air... " and followed again by The Ressurection ... though perhaps it will be comrade General tso instead of Paul this time...}

But then I imagine many Romans were making similar speculations in the 5th century...
And of course, then as now, there are dissenting speculations fom those who move and have their Being in different circles , like Fr. James V. Schall :

" In the West, nations came by the hope of immortality through Christianity, which offered the eternal promise of Israel to the Gentiles, but only on the condition that they cease to be Gentiles, through adoption into Israel of the Spirit. Israel is the exception that proves the rule, the single universal nation whose purpose is the eventual recognition of the one God by all humankind. The history of the world is the story of man's search for eternity. That is what Rosenzweig means when he said that the history of humanity is the history of eternal life, vouchsafed first to the Jews, that stands at the center of Western history. Christian Europe came into being by absorbing invader, and indigenous alike, into a super-ethnic Christian empire, whose universality was expressed by a single religious leader, whose authority transformed kingdoms, a single church, and a single language for liturgy and learning. Europe arose from a universal Christian empire and it fell when the nationalities mutinied against their mother, the Church, and fought until their mutual ruin...

"For the Christian, the light of Israel is only completed in Christ. ...Christianity has failed in its universal worldly mission. As a result, the path is now open to China, India, Islam, and, yes, Israel to refashion the world in another image. Because of its divine founding, Israel has the strongest claim."

{ So Israel wrote the pre-amble to the Christian version - with its Calvinish replacement theology - of the Original America Dream and then in 1814 Francis Scott Key furnished the lyrics } }

And David Goldman :

" With due reverence to Schall, it is not that I believe that "Christianity has failed at its universal worldly mission", or that I am concerned with matters of this world as opposed to salvation in the World to Come; rather, I observe (or rather credit Franz Rosenzweig's observation) that the Desire of Nations will never leave this world. Christians always will want what the Jews have: to be Chosen, that is, eternal, and to have a sign of eternity in their own flesh. That is the dark, existential longing which no arguments can assuage.
I do not doubt that Christianity might succeed, and (except where conversion of Jews is concerned) I hope Christianity will succeed. My point is more subtle: for Christianity to succeed, it must "Judaize" to one extent or another. That is why America is the only remaining Christian nation in the industrial world: it succeeded in styling itself a new (almost) Chosen People in a new Promised Land. And that is why the Jews remain indispensable to Christians. One learns to Judaize from the Jews. "
"As Professor Eric Nelson of Harvard observes in his remarkable book The Hebrew Republic, America's founders drew on Medieval rabbinic sources as well as the Bible in their new Mission in the Wilderness.

" Christians believe that God is incarnate in Jesus Christ, whereas Jews believe that God's Shekhinah abides in the living flesh of the Jewish people."
From what we Jews observe, belief in the Incarnation and Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is not enough for Christians; they also want to be sanctified in their own flesh. That is not the doctrine, of course, but that is the usual outcome; each of the European nations in turn arrogated to itself the idea of Election. And the Church (as well as the Protestant churches) too often appeased this desire." { and this desire is alive and throbbing in Latin America, Middle East, China, here and there in Eastern Europe and even a tad in Japan - BjCdog}

"To assert such a dark, existential Desire of Nations necessarily assigns a lesser role to reason in human affairs. It is not that reason is unimportant, but rather that it is our reason, whose exercise is unimaginable in world in which we do not exist in some recognizable way."

"I do not think Christianity will ever fail; on the contrary, I believe that it will succeed and fail to different degrees and under different circumstances. It has failed in Europe, tragically, but flourishes in the Global South. There is no reason America should not succeed as a Christian nation, and I pray it will prevail until the Messiah comes. "

"The question for Israel," Schall concludes, "remains whether its own mission is coherent, without a relation to the salvation history that ends in Christ." That is a challenge to Jews from a Christian, and a fair one: if Jews forget that what makes them unique is also what makes Israel's mission universal, they will have failed in their purpose and fade away like other nations. As Schall says, "Israel's very existence symbolizes and illuminates what nations ought to be." The nations must live in this world, even if Christians look to the next world, and Israel's mission is to evince an exemplary national existence. But we can accomplish this only by transporting eternity into everyday life."

David P. Goldman

Fade to National anthem's Last verse :

" O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their lov'd homes and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the HEAV'N-RESCUED land
Praise the POWER that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

Francis scott Key

And look at our foreign Policy and listen to our Politicians and Pundits - whose got their ears -Scholars/ Academics ? Atheistic or Agnostic scientists and philosoppers ? No way it's more like Fr. Schall, Hal Lindsay and the 700 Club Psychics ...

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:49:04 AM PST
Rubedo says:
sahansdal says:
Since we need something to feed on here, look this up: Acts 8:26 ff and Josephus, Antiquities, Book XX, ch.2. Queen Candace, and the "eunuch" treasurer from Ethiopia (where there were no harems, like in Adiabene, to be guarded by eunuchs) converting with help from 'Philip' to Christianity was really based on Queen HELEN and sons Monobazus and Izates from Adiabene converting to JUDAISM, hence the ribald parody of CIRCUMCISION of the 'eunuch'. This is just ONE example of many in the NT REVERSAL of real theology and events from the writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls from QUMRAN, the home of the refugee first TRUE 'Christians' after PAUL had chased them there from Jerusalem.

Rubedo:
But shouldn't we also approach Eisenman with the same caution we approach the NT?

For example:
Must we infer that because a theme is similar it must be a tweaked duplication?

In the Triumphal Entry of Jesus into Jerusalem to "cleanse" the Temple which had become a "robber's den," MUST WE INFER it was taken from the entry of messiah Simon bar-Giora into the city at the invitation of the priesthood to "cleanse" the Temple of rival freedom fighters?

Just sayin.

But I have only scratched the surface of these early church dynamics. Paul and James, this will be good. And yet even with his hermeneutic of suspicion he at least affirms the existence of Jesus as a historical person.

I am reminded of the Indian concept of apauruseya (unauthored). In Indian literature authoriship is not that important. The Divine word, Shabda, Logos, etc descends and discloses itself to sensitive souls taking scriptual form to influence the reader. Whether it is Vedic hymn or Gospel narrative the importance is not in the historical accuracy but the transmission of the spirit. That is using scripture for inspiration.

Now if we are interested in the development of theology and how the political scene shaped it, if we are interested in the early church, then historical, literary critical method is the way to go. But as I say, we should also be cautious with that. Dominc Crossan tried to show how the Passion narrative was recycled OT texts. Maybe, maybe not. Again, because there is similarity does not mean there is fiction.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:56:37 AM PST
Bubba says:
There is one remaining active Shaker community, at Sabbathday Lake, Maine, which as of 2012 has three members: Sister June Carpenter, Brother Arnold Hadd, and Sister Frances Carr.

Posted on Feb 20, 2013 8:24:56 AM PST
Rubedo says:
Then again:
There is growing criticism of the historical-critical method, and not only among conservatives. Scholars who adopt methods of literary criticism current in the larger arena of humanistic studies argue that historical criticism is too preoccupied with the "world behind the text"--that is, the historical referent--to the exclusion of the "world of the text"--that is, the internal literary structure and meaning that emerge simply from a study of the text. Sandra Schneiders, I.H.M., professor of spirituality and New Testament at The Jesuit School of Theology in Berkeley, argues that historical criticism does not provide an adequate hermeneutical foundation for a religious appropriation of the Bible (The Revelatory Text: Interpreting the New Testament as Sacred Scripture, 1991).

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 8:30:54 AM PST
Roeselare says:
I don't think you know what injections can do to a very small and exponentially growing brain of an infant. Does anyone know?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 8:34:10 AM PST
A. Caplan says:
sahansdal says: Dr. Eisenman is the one who broke the Vatican Ecole' Biblique's monopoly of the Dead Sea Scrolls
>I don't understand the issue. Most of the scrolls are in the Shrine of the Book in Israel, where much of the translation work is being done, with scrolls also in Jordan. They are also available in various books and other formats. Anybody with the knowledge and skill can work on translating them. So what is the Vatican's monopoly?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 8:47:06 AM PST
Joe W says:
You are trying to appeal to ignorance and emotion. If that's all you've got, don't bother.
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
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Initial post:  Feb 17, 2013
Latest post:  Mar 6, 2013

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