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There is nothing in scientific materialism which even comes close to telling me what consciousness is.


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Showing 1-25 of 814 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Feb 3, 2013 1:07:44 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 1:11:17 AM PST
Darkladder says:
There is nothing in scientific materialism which even comes close to telling me what consciousness is. In fact, scientific materialism cannot even tell me what so-called matter is or even if matter actually exists as a self-contained reality. And yet science goes on trying to reduce consciousness to matter when it doesn't even possess a definition of matter itself. It is blindness groping among phantasms. It is the fear of a creature that desperately needs to find that final solid indestructible reality and because it can't find it in the spiritual realms of religion it is trying to find it in the sense realms of science. But its hands remain empty and its heart dried up. It has nothing to offer but the illusion of endless knowledge, world-wide internet, over-priced drugs, greater comforts for the upper classes, and hydrogen bombs.
Masses of people, both educated and uneducated, believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ because they are terrified of a reality that dismembers them and finally dissolves them in utter darkness. They are helpless and unenlightened and they privately know it, however they may posture before the world. Why would they turn to science that can't even make a coherent statement? They prefer the comfort of the spiritual myth which at least seems to have something relevant to say. And it would be different if science had made some definitive discoveries in the realms of the deepest human needs. But it hasn't. All science does is selectively re-arrange and manipulate the scenery of the nightmare. Almost half the world - over three billion people - live on less than $2.50 a day. Every day of the world more than 22,000 children die of some effect of poverty. There are over a billion people in the world who can't write their name or read a single word in religious or a scientific book. These people are more likely to get something they need from a religious institution than a scientific one and they rightly don't care if neutrinos are real or not. The scientists of the world could have already created systems of economy whereby poverty would be practically eliminated, but science has always been in the service of money and power. The established religions of the world are shams, but science is worse than a sham, it is the open admission that the wretched of the earth are in the end nothing but statistics. Science prides itself vociferously on its disbelief in a flawed and garrulous God that wields power like an indifferent club, but in the world that is exactly what science itself is.
Science is the savior of nothing but the pleonasm: Consciousness is material because it is only the brain.
And it isn't a matter of spirituality being the savior of humanity either. The essential problem of the human condition goes beyond the reach any spiritual teaching. All the spiritual teachings in history have left the world in the hellish shadows because they were not real enough to remove those shadows. The wretched human body is the embarrassment of the spiritual pride which tries to de-realize it with lies and lofty rhetoric about the sole importance of the soul. The wretchedness of the body reveals the wretchedness of the elegantly blustering soul. The human being is equally material and non-material, both body and mind. There will be no salvation until the entire human being is raised up. This is why so many people, though they don't understand this, believe in the scientifically ludicrous proposition of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the one glint of salvation in the universe. And this fact is not changed by the fact that Christians are such insufferable hypocrites.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 1:39:34 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 1:45:50 AM PST
Oh, come now, things are not that bad, are they?

Seriously, when I feel like this, I take a "nature" walk, or a hike and get away from everything. It helps to just be in the moment, and not living in your mind.

Take care.

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 1:47:23 AM PST
And there is *alway* great music, AND great art.

Maybe you need to get out of yourself and go swimming?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 5:50:43 AM PST
mark says:
Cool. Pleonasm. I had to look it up, and thereby learn something. Which makes this OP worth more, from where I sit, than the sum of the other 43 posts accumulated overnight, in the other topics.

That aside, I wonder.....even if this is a bone fide metaphysically subjectivist worldview making an ill-disguised attempt to equate "wretchedness" with "salvation".....to what is a composite mind/body human being to be raised?

Peace

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 6:19:30 AM PST
Lightladder - "There is nothing in scientific materialism which even comes close to telling me what consciousness is"

Which means, in a nutshell, we don't know what consciousness is. Which we already knew, which is why scientists are still studying the issue. However, "science hasn't explained ____" isn't an argument for anything being non-material.

"Science is the savior of nothing but the pleonasm"

Science isn't a 'savior' of anything at all. It's just the best method we've come up with to investigate, understand, manipulate, and exploit the world in which we find ourselves.

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 8:45:57 AM PST
S. Kessler says:
Paragraph breaks! My kingdom for a paragraph break!

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 9:05:55 AM PST
Nova137 says:
"Imagination, to Artaud, was reality; he considered dreams, thoughts and delusions as no less real than the 'outside' world. To him, reality appeared to be a consensus, the same consensus the audience accepts when they enter a theatre to see a play and, for a time, pretend that what they are seeing is real.

"Artaud saw suffering as essential to existence and thus rejected all utopias as inevitable dystopia. He denounced the degradation of civilization, yearned for cosmic purification, and called for an ecstatic loss of the self. Hence Jane Goodall considers Artaud to be a modern Gnostic while Ulli Seegers stresses the Hermetic elements in his works.

"A very important study on the Artaud work comes from Jacques Derrida. According to the philosopher, as theatrical writer and actor, Artaud is the embodiment of both an aggressive and repairing gesture, which strikes, sounds out, is harsh in a dramatic way and with critical determination as well. Identifying life as art, he was critically focused on the western cultural social drama, to point out and deny the double-dealing on which the western theatrical tradition is based; he worked with the whirlpool of feelings and lunatic expressions, being subjugated to a counter-force which came from the act of gesture.[4] [5] Definitely, the Artaud work gave life to all of what has never been admitted in art, all the torment and the labour into the creator consciousness, which is about the research of the meaning of making a work of art.[4]"

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin_Artaud

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 11:40:00 AM PST
IFeelFree says:
OK, we know what you are against. What are you in favor of, with respect to understanding consciousness or anything else?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 11:44:49 AM PST
The empirical presence of a giant monolithic wall of text caused me to pass this by.

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 12:29:55 PM PST
J. Harding says:
Scientists don't have a definition for matter? I find that hard to believe. I also suspect that you're selling short the things that science actually can tell us about consciousness. We may not know everything, but I bet we know more than the OP seems to be suggesting.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 12:41:51 PM PST
HAHAHAHAHA

You described my feeling as well, but it was late and nobody else was on, so I read it. He's just frustrated, I think. You know the feeling.

Maybe he didn't insert paragraphs to save space?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 1:03:27 PM PST
Maybe so. Maybe his isp charges by the character?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 2:03:37 PM PST
Nova137 says:
When you type in Word, etc. and paste, sometimes the paragraphs get lost. You need to post, look, edit if necessary. Alternatively, double-space in Word, etc.

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 2:05:13 PM PST
Nova137 says:
Actually, when you paste, before posting, you can tell if it looks right, paragraph-wise. Edit if necessary! Monolithic posts are difficult to get through. But, sometimes, too many paragraphs are too, I've found. If you look at the content of his/her post, though, there is much food for thought.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 2:28:56 PM PST
Darkladder says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 2:51:25 PM PST
Darkladder says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 2:54:05 PM PST
Darkladder says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 3:53:17 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 3:56:41 PM PST
Saro: "You are in error. You never feel like this. You don't have any idea what I'm talking about because you won't let yourself go there. You self-servingly assume that I am unhappy. I am not unhappy and I am not frustrated. I have no desire whatsoever to be freed from my perceptions that look like torment to you because you are detached from reality and are concerned about nothing but your comfort. The purpose of YOUR "nature walks" and YOUR "great art" is to forget reality and not to take it into yourself, embrace it, and love it though it terrifies you. You are an addict, your drugs of preference are nature walks and great art. Aesthetic oblivion."

My apologies, then. You presume too much. I'm a painter, and you know what I'm working now? I'm working on some pieces of children done in monochromatic colors when they are *not* smiling, *not* feeling good, and show other feelings like confusion, jealousy... all the things that we don't want to accept in children, but are valid feelings. Look up the phrase "negative capability".

Or if you don't want people to respond, then don't start a blankety blank thread.

edit: Oh, golly, you're into theatre. I thought I smelled drama.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 4:06:44 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
SL,

How did we get from materialism and consciousness to salvation, Jesus, and "a fusing of opposites"? You're all over the map.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 4:13:24 PM PST
Wulfwig Fox says:
What does your religion tell you about the nature of consciousness?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 4:20:03 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 4:21:25 PM PST
tokolosi says:
S. Kessler says:
"Paragraph breaks! My kingdom for a paragraph break!"

Rachel Rebecca Riordan says:
"The empirical presence of a giant monolithic wall of text caused me to pass this by."

I couldn't bring myself to slog through the block of text either. But I'm still curious -- is this yet another God Of The Gaps argument? If so, I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

P.S. Saro Etc., you really gotta learn the art of text spacing. It makes for a much easier read for the rest of us.

Posted on Feb 3, 2013 4:23:12 PM PST
I doubt if he wants to be effective at all. I think it is just "venting."

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 4:47:36 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 5:03:36 PM PST
mark says:
Good post.

Perhaps equate through complementarity?

"...Science/Physics will in time discover that our reality is made of the relationship of elemental opposites..."
(I think science is already aware of the elemental opposites that predicates our sense of reality. Whether or not such complementarity is responsible for it, has yet to be determined.)

"...the road to salvation cannot avoid the wretchedness, both physical and psychic, that plagues the human condition..."
(It may very well be that the road to salvation cannot avoid wretchedness, but only if one is on it. The psychic wretchedness, as regards the otherwise rational individual human, is nothing but a state of mind. The selfish me rejects the very concept of salvation, as an un-necessary rehabilitation from a wretchedness I do not acknowledge.)

Peace.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 5:37:35 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 3, 2013 11:56:01 PM PST
Interesting POV but one I don't hold to ... I see science as the only thread that will eventually lead us from the Minotaur's dark domain.

"There is nothing in scientific materialism which even comes close to telling me what consciousness is. "

Scientific materialism has no obligation to provide superficial or comfortable answers on demand; for that you require religion.
While we all have a predilection for answers that support our imprinted worldview (as part of our human condition). Science itself is indifferent to our wishes and in that respect is the antitheses of religiosity.

"In fact, scientific materialism cannot even tell me what so-called matter is or even if matter actually exists as a self-contained reality."

It's more likely to than navel gazing and fairy stories.

"There are over a billion people in the world who can't write their name or read a single word in religious or a scientific book. These people are more likely to get something they need from a religious institution than a scientific one and they rightly don't care if neutrinos are real or not. "

Given their lack of reading skills they probably know little of neutrinos and would remain in their blissfully wretched state of ignorance, were it not for people who find the road to knowledge, however hard, preferable to the tar pits of religion and the quagmire of spiritual longing. They might find antibiotics more efficacious than prayer, if not as cheap.

"Science has always been in the service of money and power. "

Science is not a conscious entity.
It's status is mostly a reflection of its usefulness in comparison to any alternative. Religions cultivate and harvest the wretchedness of the world. They feed on misery and ignorance they pander to fear of the unknown.

"The human being is equally material and non-material, both body and mind. "

Can't see any reason to believe this.
But then beliefs and reason make such poor bed fellows. Give me science over rhetoric and wishful thinking any day. Give me a smart phone over the numinous anytime.
And if we want to know what consciousness is, I feel a MRI scanner would prove more useful than a pulpit.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 3, 2013 10:34:59 PM PST
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
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Initial post:  Feb 3, 2013
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