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Quotes on "Faith"


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Showing 1-25 of 172 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Nov 27, 2012 12:18:17 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 1:13:52 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"I learned something very important today and it just dawned on me. I wanna talk about faith. It's not about whether something is true, or based in fact, or reality, or the laws of physics, or nature, or even basic common sense. It's about whether or not we're d.u.m.b. enough to believe in it that matters."

--Dennis Reynolds, It's Always Sunny in Philidelphia

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 12:21:52 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 12:58:46 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"What is interesting here actually is we've got people from different faiths, and they all believe in some kind of heaven in different sense, and every single one of them believes in this heaven on the basis of faith, and faith by definition is believing in things without evidence, and personally I don't do that because... I'm not an i.d.i.o.t."

--Kate Smurthwaite

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 12:23:12 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 12:58:20 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Faith is so obviously i.d.i.o.t.i.c. that you can scarcely describe the notion accurately without insulting its addicts."

--Stephen M. Cameron

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 12:39:21 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that will not admit of even the possibility of correction."

"One is motivated to understand the world, to be in touch with reality, to remove doubt, etc. [...] motives like wanting to find the truth, not wanting to be mistaken, etc., tend to align with epistemic goals in a way that many other commitments do not. [...] But if a person's primary motivation in holding a belief is to hue to a positive state of mind, to mitigate feelings of anxiety, embarrassment, or guilt for instance, this is precisely what we mean by phrases like 'wishful-thinking', and 'self-deception'. Such a person will, of necessity, be less responsive to valid chains of evidence and argument that run counter to the beliefs he is seeking to maintain. To point out non-epistemic motives in anothers view of the world, therefore, is always a criticism, as it serves to cast doubt on a persons connection to the world as it is."

"It is time that we admitted that faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail."

--Sam Harris

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 12:45:52 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov 27, 2012 12:46:23 AM PST]

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 12:57:18 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Exercising faith, that is, deliberately attempting to believe something to a degree of certainty which exceeds what is warranted by the available evidence, is i.d.i.o.t.i.c., and inescapably dishonest. It's i.d.i.o.t.i.c. because simply willing yourself to be excessively certain isn't going to make any proposition more or less true in reality. You're only fooling yourself, and deliberately. That's i.d.i.o.c.y. It's dishonest because it involves lying to yourself about how certain you should be and to others about how certain you actually are.

If you think faith is a virtue, you're being an i.d.i.o.t."

--Stephen M. Cameron

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 1:10:55 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies."

"Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music."

"The only sense to make of tragedies like this is that terrible things can happen to perfectly innocent people. This understanding inspires compassion. Religious faith, on the other hand, erodes compassion. Thoughts like, 'this might be all part of God's plan,' or 'there are no accidents in life,' or 'everyone on some level gets what he or she deserves' - these ideas are not only s.t.u.p.i.d., they are extraordinarily callous. They are nothing more than a childish refusal to connect with the suffering of other human beings. It is time to grow up and let our hearts break at moments like this."

--Sam Harris

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 5:00:56 AM PST
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 6:38:50 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
"Faith is the state of being ultimately concerned; the dynamics of faith are the dynamics of man's ultimate concern." (p. 1)

"Man, in contrast to other living beings, has spiritual concerns--cognitive, aesthetic, social, political. Some of them are urgent, often extremely urgent, and each of them. . . can claim ultimacy for a human life or the life of a social group. If it claims ultimacy it demands the total surrender of him who accepts this claim, and it promises total fulfillment even if all other claims have to be subjected to it or rejected in its name." (pp. 1-2)

"The most ordinary misinterpretation of faith is to consider it an act of knowledge that has a low degree of evidence. . . . Faith is more than trust in even the most sacred authority. It is participation in the subject of one's ultimate concern with one's whole being. Therefore, the term 'faith' should not be used in connection with theoretical knowledge." (pp. 36, 37-38)

Dynamics of Faith (Perennial Classics)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 6:48:00 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
"But with the enlightenment of the 17th Century--the birth of modern science and scientific ways of knowing--suddenly the central claims of the Christian tradition no longer looked like bedrock truth to many people. They became questionable, and so faith as giving your mental assent to the creed, to the Bible, to Christian doctrine and so forth, became the primary meaning, at least amongst Protestants, of what faith meant [Latin, assensus]. Faith increasingly came to mean believing iffy stuff to be true. . . . Now, that is a very odd notion of faith when you think about it, as if what God most wants from us is believing iffy stuff to be true. That that is what God is looking for; that's what will save us. As if the more questionable the things you believe, the stronger your faith is. It is not only a very strange notion of faith, but when you think of it, faith as believing is relatively powerless. . . . You can believe all the right things and still be in bondage. You can believe all the right things and still be relatively untransformed. Faith as believing, that has very little transformative power."

Marcus Borg, "What is Faith" (sermon), March 16, 2001
http://www.explorefaith.org/LentenHomily03.16.01.html

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 7:17:48 AM PST
G. Heron says:
Daniel Dickson-LaPrade

"Faith is more than trust in even the most sacred authority. It is participation in the subject of one's ultimate concern with one's whole being. "

Can you or anyone else tell me what this actually means?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 7:55:47 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
There are two parts to this Tillich account of faith: "ultimate concern" and "whole being."

1) Like all organisms, people need food, shelter, etc. UNlike other organisms, people also have political, moral, aesthetic, etc. concerns. Some of these latter concerns take on an ultimate character. For a truly greedy person, money is not just the favorite-thing-among-others; it is something to which every other concern must be subjugated, whether love, peace, health, family, or what have you. The greedy person accepts this ultimate concern because he sees an ultimate promise: with wealth will come a life worth living, a meaningful life. Nothing else can provide this, so everything else must be subjected to this.

Avarice, nationalism, and things of this nature can be of ultimate concern, but the results of this are obviously terrible (on Tillich's account, such things are not REALLY ultimate, and are thus idols). But consider Sam Harris: he believes that all religious thought of whatever sort ought to vanish, that moral philosophy can become an unproblematic empirical discipline like organic chemistry, and that only reason and empirical evidence are necessary for peace, progress, and prosperity. In following this promise, EVERYTHING must be subjugated to reason. On Tillich's account, reason would be Harris's ultimate concern, his object of faith.

2) I have faith, in Tillich's sense, in this proposition: every attempt should be made to fairly understand the views of others, no matter how ludicrous, irrational, and dangerous they may seem to be, because otherwise, true understanding of one's fellows and true working-together to solve human problems is impossible.

But this proposition is a linguistic accretion that comes LATER. Before I languaged it, it was already a part of WHO I AM, cognitively, emotionally, and socially. It is part of my "whole being" in the sense that I act from it, rather than talking to myself about it. Faith is thus not a more or less rational assent to a particular logical or empirical proposition: for Tillich, faith is the acceptance of an ultimate concern (on the basis of its promise for our lives) with our whole being. Faith is existential, not propositional or perceptual.

There is also a third part of Tillich's faith: risk. The theist's deity may not exist, wealth may not bring happiness, reason may not save the world, and my attempt to get into the worldviews of others may lead me to accept a worldview that will destroy me. Faith may always be in error, and thus always implies an element of existential risk, no matter what the object of ultimate concern may be.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 7:56:09 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 8:58:26 AM PST
Take it slowly word by word.

Like me, you will come to the conclusion it is not difficult. Translate it as "faith is more than trust. In that faith you pray to God, who has your interests at heart."

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:22:52 AM PST
G. Heron says:
Clarissa

"Take it slowly word by word. "

Ok

"Faith is more than trust in even the most sacred authority."

I get this bit, then he says

"It is participation in the subject of one's ultimate concern with one's whole being. "

It being faith so what he is saying is

"Faith is participation in the subject of one's ultimate concern with one's whole being. "

Now can anyone explain what this actually means

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:26:38 AM PST
G. Heron says:
Daniel Dickinson-LaPrade

So are you saying that the quote means that faith can be about anything not just a deity and that a person can have faith in a deity that does not exist?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:57:31 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 8:58:06 AM PST
I told you in my third and fourth sentences at 7:56 AM. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:59:59 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 9:11:31 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Faith is the state of being ultimately concerned; the dynamics of faith are the dynamics of man's ultimate concern"

Oh, look, faith isn't dumb anymore because here's this tautology! Oh wait, that means nothing.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:04:12 AM PST
G. Heron says:
Clarissa

You tell me that faith is more than trust but that does not tell me what it is. If I say something is more than green do you know what colour it is?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:06:43 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"...as if what God most wants from us is believing iffy stuff to be true."

Much like space rhinos don't want us believing in imaginary things.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:08:12 AM PST
Trust is thinking no harm will come; faith is holding on to a belief in God.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:08:43 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 9:10:03 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
It means nothing because it's a tautology. It just says a thing and puts on a facade of meaning what it says it means for no real reason other than it saying that's what it means. It's a dishonest tactic employed on a dishonest term to feed you sophistry.

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 9:23:18 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 9:25:20 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity. For the crowd considers anything deep if only it cannot see to the bottom: the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water."

"Religions point to the successful result of faith. 'You'll soon discover the advantage of faith,' it suggested, 'you'll be blessed because of it.' The state, in fact, does the same thing, and each father raises his son in the same way 'Just take this to be true,' he says, 'you'll discover how good it feels.' But this means that the truth of an opinion should be proved by its personal benefit; the usefulness of a teaching should guarantee its intellectual certainty and substantiation. This is as if the defendant were to say in court 'My defender is telling the whole truth, for just see what happens as a result of his plea I am acquitted.'"

--Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 9:40:08 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"A casual stroll through the insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

"Christianity was from the beginning, essentially and fundamentally, life's nausea and disgust with life merely concealed behind, masked by, dressed up as, faith in 'another' or 'better' life."

"The desire for a strong faith is not the proof of a strong faith, rather the opposite."

"The bound spirit assumes a position, not for reasons, but out of habit; he is a Christian, for example, not because he had insight into the various religions and chose among them; he is an Englishman not because he deecided for England; but rather, Christianity and England were givens, and he accepted them without having reasons, as someone who was born in wine country becomes a wine drinker. Later, when he was a Christian and an Englishman, he may also have devised some reasons in favor of his habit; even if these reasons are overthrown, he, in his whole position, is not. Ask a bound spirit for his reasons against bigamy, for example, and you will learn whether his holy zeal for monogamy is based on reasons or on habit. The habit of intellectual principles without reasons is called faith."

--Friedrich Nietzsche

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:50:01 AM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Look, they have faith like me so they're just as dumb."

Nope. Not only is that a childish re-definition of faith, which is already pretty insane as is, but reason isn't some entity somewhere. It doesn't exist as a thing, it means we have reasons for what we believe. If you disagree with this, you're... irrational! Faith is believing in things without evidence. Sam Harris doesn't have faith, he wrote a book on it's uselessness and the damage it does. Rational people have reasonable expectations based on evidence, which is trust. But we don't have faith. All you have is sophistry. You needed to change the meaning because it's indefensable, you child.

Posted on Nov 27, 2012 1:31:41 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
"Faith is ones personal validation of wishful thinking."

--brunumb

Very succinct. However, I would alter that slightly to:
"Faith is the personal validation of a wish."
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
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Total posts:  172
Initial post:  Nov 27, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 6, 2012

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