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Customer Discussions > Religion forum

What's the point?


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Showing 1-25 of 90 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jan 14, 2013 6:43:39 PM PST
Allan says:
Four years of reading posts from Literalist ID/Creationist End Times fundies have got me really wondering at the childish narrowness of their thinking (those who understand the Brahman, whether they accept it or not, will know exactly where I am coming from).

[This is barely scratching the surface. If I were able to sit down with my mob we could come up with a great deal more.]

According to them, their deity six thousands years ago created a universe which is believed (at present) to be at least 93 billion light years in diameter,[7] (wiki), (93 billion times 6 trillion miles) containing billions of galaxies, all with billions of stars. We are already finding other earth-like planets in our one, single, galaxy, planets which look as though they have all the qualities need for life to exist.

Yet they believe the entire universe was created solely for us, a limited life form restricted to an insignificant planet circling a minor sun on the fringes of one of those billions of galaxies.

Worse than that, their deity planted a garden in Mesopotamia, placed an enormous temptation right in the middle of it, then created two totally naive, innocent beings and put them right in the way of that temptation. When they succumbed to that temptation, as they must, he introduced death into the world, killing not only their bodies but their souls.

To make matters even worse, he permitted one-third of the superior beings he had created to rebel against him and go to war. Having lost, their leader was then meekly given total control over the one and only other intelligent life form in this vast universe.

The creator god then, apparently, permitted his supernatural sons to shack up with human women, creating monsters, then decided he had made such a mess of things that he would wipe us all out and start all over again. However, without a thought for the results of inbreeding, he permitted eight humans to survive and rebuild our race (now seven billion), a race which, according to the posse, he had condemned entirely because the original pair had fallen for the temptation he had placed in their way.

He later came down to earth and sacrificed himself to himself to wipe out the debt he considered his first perfect humans owed him.

But at some stage he had invented fossils and geological structures which, once again, totally misled the best-educated of his humans, resulting in them questioning the accuracy of the sacred texts he had placed before them. This, in turn, will lead to those educated humans being condemned to an eternity of torture and torment, except for a tiny handful who take his sacred texts literally.

Now, they say (despite his promise to himself last time he did it), he plans to allow his defeated rival to trick the entire world into believing he is the creator god and, once this has succeeded he will once again wipe most of us out, before recreating the garden he made at the beginning and reducing us to the level once again of hewers of wood and drawers of water, to spend the rest of eternity singing his praises as a token of our respect for his magnanimity.

What's the point?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 6:59:03 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
Good question.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 7:24:49 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 25, 2014 12:41:52 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 7:33:42 PM PST
Allan says:
''n short, the only way to be happy, is to stop making claims on the Universe, to stop imagining it as an-entity-designed-to-fulfill-your-needs, to stop withholding your gratitude from it when it fails to fulfill your needs, and to stop believing in Your Right To Be Happy. ''

For me, in part, the only way to achieve fulfilment is to understand oneself first.

We are all culturally conditioned, and the challenge is to understand that conditioning and come to terms with it.

The battle between good and evil, for me, is the battle between our genetic condition as a social/tribal animal and our cultural conditioning which encourages us to be self-centred at the cost of our contribution to not just our fellow Great Apes but to the Pale Blue Dot we depend entirely on.

Posted on Jan 14, 2013 8:29:39 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 22, 2013 8:53:31 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 9:36:58 PM PST
I don't know the answer to your question - I'm pretty sure that whole Adam-and-Eve thing is just an allegory, not to be taken literally - but I wanted to say "Hi." :)
Hope all goes well in Australia, my friend!
Okay, back to work...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 9:41:18 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Allan that's an excellent analysis of what the fundamentalist Christians do seem to believe. I wonder how they will respond.

It's amazing that anyone could take any of that seriously.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 11:45:31 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 15, 2013 12:37:51 AM PST
Amy Hall says:
A lot of fundies I knew were 3rd & 4th generation fundies; they were brought up on xtianity, went to xtian schools, stayed in xtian communities; it's very insular. Church activities can get you wrapped up so much that the only people you see are the same church people. Kind of like the mob, or a touring rock band.

Posted on Jan 15, 2013 4:04:07 AM PST
S. Schoby says:
Allan says: For me, in part, the only way to achieve fulfilment is to understand oneself first.

We are all culturally conditioned, and the challenge is to understand that conditioning and come to terms with it.

SS :you hit the nail on the head, it reminds me of an old saying, "to know god is to know yourself, this does not mean to be a god or believe in a god it means to know yourself is to know of others."

It seems religion is used to justify a view an opinion of someone else, perhaps an excuse to hide behind or perhaps a cultural submission.
Homosexuals are all this way, women must be like this that other religion is the false one, and you must live your life this way.

Morality with no ethics, no understanding of the self, locked in a closet, a self made jail screaming about how everyone else has put them there and how everyone else must be in this closet, how it can not escape despite holding the key to open the door.

It must judge all others actions and never ponder its own actions.

It isn't the idea pre say of a god, it is how it has been used, if this god created all of life then it is all here, if it has evolved it is also all here.

What you think of it, what you tolerate about it is what you think of it and what you tolerate about it.
God or no god those thoughts are your thoughts, what you fear what you submit to, what you hide about yourself, what you have conformed to is what you do.

Know who you are before you decide you think you know what others are.
Morality is what you do it is not what others do, practice it with ethics and there is then no need to preach it.
Life is all of life it is not just your life.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 4:44:03 AM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 4:51:43 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 15, 2013 5:34:28 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:06:34 AM PST
Allan says:
See you around, Nancy.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:10:05 AM PST
Allan says:
My long-lost love.

I trust you are well?

(Yes, I have tried to get genuine discussions going on Adam and Eve, too, but it seems no one wants to accept that the real fruit of that tree was its symbiot, Amanita muscaria.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:16:08 AM PST
Allan says:
S. Schoby says: Morality with no ethics, no understanding of the self, locked in a closet, a self made jail screaming about how everyone else has put them there and how everyone else must be in this closet, how it can not escape despite holding the key to open the door.

Allan: I see it as worse than that.

The abominable doctrine of Original Sin has caused enormous damage in the West (not sure, but I think Eastern Orthodoxy has a a more balance, mature POV).

It has conditioned us to look for the worse in everyone, including ourselves, and also given us a cop-out which encourages us to avoid personal responsibility for our own actions.

As Geraldine said: the Devil made me do it.

Covers the lot, doesn't it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:22:34 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 22, 2013 8:53:43 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:22:41 AM PST
Allan says:
''the Angels of God drove out the Devil with their own increasing powers of Truth..''

Problem with that is the Christian Devil was not invented until long after the exiled Jews were freed by the messiah/christ Cyrus and returned home with Zarathustra's Angra Mainyu/Ahriman. The war in heaven was probably based on the Babylonian mythology when, as a political exercise they promoted the own patron patron Marduk. The Dragon Lady Tiamat fought this, lost, and was expelled from heaven.

Somewhere along the way, too, Enoch's Watcher leader Semjâzâ was adapted into the story, and I'd really appreciate it if someone could put me on the right track to follow this up.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:23:59 AM PST
Allan says:
You know the law, mate. What are my chances?

They do tell me, though, that Blue Meanies grown in the bush just down the road.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 5:27:17 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 22, 2013 8:53:50 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 7:39:50 AM PST
Allan says:
Problem with that, Buck, is that it is coming from a Christian site which is extremely coy about identifying itself and its POV.

''Consequentially in the ancient world and Scripture, drug abuse and the cognate φαρμακε;;ία pharmakeía is inextricably linked with the occult, the fallen angels and the dark arts.<<''

That is a heavily loaded distortion of the facts.

I checked a couple more of their scripts, and that same distortion was in each.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 7:51:54 AM PST
Allan says:
Picked this one up there as well, Buck. The connection of the entheogen ergot with the Biblical tare is interesting.

''In the Greek New Testament the Gospel Tare is cited as Ζιζάνια; Zizánia, a lolium rye which grows as darnel among good wheat and is host to the parasitic fungal infection Claviceps tulasne (purpurea), the ergot mould, in which ergoline alkaloids, mainly derivatives of lysergic acid, can be found.''

More than a hint of LSD there, isn't there.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 2:36:30 PM PST
Harry Marks says:
Allan -
"The battle between good and evil, for me, is the battle between our genetic condition as a social/tribal animal and our cultural conditioning which encourages us to be self-centred at the cost of our contribution to not just our fellow Great Apes but to the Pale Blue Dot we depend entirely on. "

Not quite my view. Our genetic conditioning as a tribal animal includes considerable impetus to try to be king (or queen) of the hill in that tribe. Our self-centeredness is not entirely cultural, just as our ability to be effectively tribal is heavily cultural. In other words, identifying selfishness with culture and cooperation/community with genes just won't hold up to scrutiny.

Ideally culture continues to increase the resources by which reason allows us to make sense of our competing urges, and to find a path in which the tension between them is managed creatively rather than chaotically leading to excess stress and even destructive behavior.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 2:38:24 PM PST
Harry Marks says:
MMX -

"Let's say you were so loving towards others that you served their needs as much as possible. Would this make you happy? If you were a Saint, and everyone loved you, would this make you happy? If you deeply loved a woman, and satisfied the bulk of her needs, would this make you happy?
(6) The answers are Guaranteed NO - because you're trying to fill their needs in order to receive their gratitude. But this gratitude is still only the first type, the gratitude we feel towards those who fulfill our needs."

I congratulate you on an insightful and helpful post.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 2:44:36 PM PST
Harry Marks says:
Allan -

"What's the point?"

I would say the point is that people's lives don't automatically cohere or make sense, and that a sense of stability and a source of authority can be valuable allies in trying to get to a coherent and functioning life. Since many people have to devote much of their psychic resources to keeping the lid on a seething caldron of anger and resentment, a narrative of sin and redemption is a useful tool. It seems to need the authority of "absolute inerrancy" for many of them, and it needs the stability of "unchanging truth", but these are easily managed without losing the essential quality of a narrative of sin and redemption.

If they can manage to apply some reason, it should be to the anger and resentment, not to the symbolism that helps them cope with it. So, in other words, what's the point of your critique of literalism? If literalists were ready to think along the lines of the questions you raise, they would already be doing it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 2:50:16 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 22, 2013 8:54:01 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 2:51:02 PM PST
Seeker says:
Power

and greed too............
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  19
Total posts:  90
Initial post:  Jan 14, 2013
Latest post:  Jan 22, 2013

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