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No One has satisfactorily answered the question: What came before The Big Bang? How did the Big Bang Come From Nothing and From Nowhere to "Create" This Universe? What happened Before Space and Time and Matter?


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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 12:56:37 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
BW: I was trying to prove someone wrong when God's Truth proved me wrong.

IFF: Anything that can be believed, can be doubted. True spirituality is oriented around spiritual experience and realization, not around belief, dogma, scripture, and ritual.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 1:12:48 PM PST
Ben West says:
BW: I was trying to prove someone wrong when God's Truth proved me wrong.

IFF: Anything that can be believed, can be doubted. True spirituality is oriented around spiritual experience and realization, not around belief, dogma, scripture, and ritual.

Dear IFF, Sorry, but Scripture tells us what is the Power of God unto Salvation. It is found in the Bible:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Do you know what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 1:20:57 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
BW: Scripture tells us what is the Power of God unto Salvation.

IFF: All kinds of books tell us all kinds of things. What matters is what you have realized in your own experience. Anything else is just a belief that mind can cling to, or doubt.

BW: Do you know what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

IFF: I know what the Christian church teaches as the gospel of Christ. It is a corruption of the truth, and very likely a distortion of what Jesus actually taught. There is no vicarious salvation.

Posted on Feb 20, 2013 1:36:32 PM PST
Ben West says:
BW: Do you know what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

IFF: I know what the Christian church teaches as the gospel of Christ. It is a corruption of the truth, and very likely a distortion of what Jesus actually taught. There is no vicarious salvation.

Dear IFF, I don't believe you know the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you did, you would have posted it, but you did not. If you know it, tell us, or admit you don't know it.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 1:56:18 PM PST
Alan says:
Ben West,

We do not know what the person called Jesus said or did, we only know what the authors of the texts contained within the Bible claim that he said and did.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 2:30:34 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
BW: Dear IFF, I don't believe you know the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you did, you would have posted it, but you did not. If you know it, tell us, or admit you don't know it.

IFF: The gospel of Christ is summarized in the commandments to "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." What has been lost within Christianity are the esoteric or secret, higher, and mystical teachings by which that God-realizing love is realized.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 4:50:14 PM PST
"We do not know what the person called Jesus said or did, we only know what the authors of the texts contained within the Bible claim that he said and did."

And, they were written well after he is said to have died.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:36:58 PM PST
Ben West says:
Ben West,
We do not know what the person called Jesus said or did, we only know what the authors of the texts contained within the Bible claim that he said and did.

Dear Alan, I have shown that only God could have possibly known the scientific details in Genesis. So far, NO one has been able to refute a single thing which I have posted. IOW, God's Holy Word was authored by God, Himself, including the words of Jesus.

Can you refute my view?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:43:32 PM PST
Joe W says:
Ben:I have shown that only God could have possibly known the scientific details in Genesis.

Joe: Both accounts of Genesis get the order in which things were formed wrong. Snakes don't have larynx or the brain structures for speech or abstract cognition. One cannot commit a moral act without an existing conception of morality. There is no such thing as magic. Plants cannot live without light. The Sumerians were already building cities and drinking beer.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:45:30 PM PST
It takes a very special kind of mind to stick with biblical literacy in the 21st century... very, very special.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:47:44 PM PST
Ben West says:
BW: Dear IFF, I don't believe you know the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you did, you would have posted it, but you did not. If you know it, tell us, or admit you don't know it.

IFF: The gospel of Christ is summarized in the commandments to "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Dear IFF, Sorry, but that is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the summary of the Law where Jesus explains what the Law says.

IFF:>>What has been lost within Christianity are the esoteric or secret, higher, and mystical teachings by which that God-realizing love is realized.

The Gospel is known. Here it is.

1Cr 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The death burial and resurrection of Jesus IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Notice also that it is "according to the Scriptures." It is the Power of God unto Salvation. Romans 1:16 Those who believe this good news are saved, and those who reject this Gospel are lost.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:56:58 PM PST
Ben: Dear Alan, I have shown that only God could have possibly known the scientific details in Genesis. So far, NO one has been able to refute a single thing which I have posted. IOW, God's Holy Word was authored by God, Himself, including the words of Jesus.

Can you refute my view?

Rachel: The Bible itself refutes your view. Here are but a few from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible.

1. The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

2. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

3. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

4. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

5. God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11

6. In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

7. God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

8. "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

9. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

10. In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24

11. God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26

12. God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28

13. "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."
Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29

14. All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

15. "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31

16. In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

17. Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7

18. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22

19. God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

20. God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

21. Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18

22. Seth lived 912 years. 5:8

23. Enos lived 905 years. 5:11

24. Cainan lived 910 years. 5:14

25. Mahalaleel lived 895 years. 5:17

26. Jared lived 962 years. 5:20

27. Enoch doesn't die he just ascends into heaven. 5:21-24

28. Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken (alive?) by God. 5:23

29. When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25

30. Methuselah lived 969 years. (World record holder.) 5:27

31. Lamech lived 777 years. 5:31

32. "There were giants in the earth in those days." 6:4

33. God tells Noah to make one small window (18 inches square) in the 450 foot ark for ventilation. 6:14-16

34. Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8

35. God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11

36. All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14

37. The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20

38. "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2

39. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11

40. When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19

41. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor."
Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21

42. "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1

43. According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2

44. "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2

45. "I do set my bow in the cloud."
God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He makes a deal with the animals, promising never to drown them all again. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever he sees it, it will remind him of his promise so that he won't be tempted to do it again. (Every time God sees the rainbow he says to himself: "Oh, yeah.... That's right. I promised not to drown the animals again. I guess I'll have to find something else to do.").
But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13

46. "Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided."
Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25

47. "The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6

48. "Now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
God worries that the people will succeed in building a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6

49. According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9

50. The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32

51. Shem lived 600 years. 11:12-13

52. Salah lived 433 years. 11:14-15

53. Eber lived 464 years. 11:16-17

54. Peleg lived 239 years. 11:18-19

55. Reu lived 239 years. 11:20-21

56. Serug lived 229 years. 11:22-23

57. Nahor lived 148 years. 11:24-25

58. And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years. 11:32

59. "Abram ... pursued them unto Dan."
This is an obvious anachronism, since the city of Dan was not named "Dan" until the time of the Judges (see Judges 18:29). In fact, Dan (for whom the city was named) was not even born yet (see Genesis 30:6). 14:14

60. "And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1

61. Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27

62. Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39

63. God (or an angel) praises Jacob for his fancy genetic work in 30:37-39. 31:11-12

64. Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5-15

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 5:59:28 PM PST
Ben West says:
Joe W says:
Ben:I have shown that only God could have possibly known the scientific details in Genesis.

Joe: Both accounts of Genesis get the order in which things were formed wrong.

Dear Joe, Not so. There is but ONE account. Genesis chapter 1 is the entire history of the 6 Creative Days, including events which are yet future to our time. At Genesis 2:4 we are taken BACK to the events of the 3rd Day, the Day the earth was made. We live TODAY at Genesis 1:27 because God is STILL creating Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ. Genesis 1:28-31 is PROPHECY.

Joe:>>Snakes don't have larynx or the brain structures for speech or abstract cognition.

The serpent of Genesis is identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9.

Joe:>>One cannot commit a moral act without an existing conception of morality.

Adam was told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil lest he die. Adam did die on the present 6th Day. ALL humans live and die on the present 6th Day.

Joe:>>There is no such thing as magic. Plants cannot live without light.

I agree. The Light of the first Day supplied the Light for the plants which did not grow until the 3rd Day. The light of our Sun did not come until some 9 Billion years after the Big Bang. You are confusing the Light of the first earth with the light of our Sun.

Joe:>>The Sumerians were already building cities and drinking beer.

The Sumerians were in Southern Mesopotamia thousands of years AFTER Noah arrived in Northern Mesopotamia, just south of the mountains of Ararat.

Try again?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:06:39 PM PST
Joe W says:
The type of mind that can appeal to science as validation of his position, while simultaneously calling science unreliable, while surrounded by modern technology that he owns and loves.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:06:42 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
Ben,

I believe that is Paul speaking in 1 Cr 15. He never even met Jesus (except in a vision, as he claims), and his teaching is a perversion of what Jesus taught.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:12:28 PM PST
Joe W says:
Ben: Try again?

Joe: Why? You haven't actually addressed a single point I raised. Judging from your replies, you didn't under stand a point that I raised. Pardon, you did understand the Light/plant reference, but you are wrong about my confusion.

Posted on Feb 20, 2013 6:34:13 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 20, 2013 6:34:52 PM PST
Gee I wish you all would stop quoting Ben in your replies. It makes my hiding his posts all but useless. Almost as useless as trying to get him to stop mindlessly spew scripture. But I will say that those of you who still take the time to try to reason with him have infinitely more patience than I do.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled exercise in futility, already in progress.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:44:40 PM PST
Ben West says:
Ben:>>Can you refute my view?

Rachel: The Bible itself refutes your view. Here are but a few from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible.

Dear Rachel, I shall refute your "Skeptic's Bible" for the first 25 things you list. I shall be as brief as possible to show you that your "Bible" is not to be believed.

1. The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

False. Genesis agrees in every way with every discovery of Science.

RRR:>>In Genesis, the earth is created before light

Not so. The earth is formed the 3rd Day, some 9 Billion years after the Light of the first Day. Jesus is that Light. He is brighter than the Noonday Sun. Acts 22:6

RRR:>>and stars,

The first earth had no stars. The stars came into being AFTER the Big Bang of our Cosmos. Notice that the BB was made the 3rd Day but the Stars did not appear until the 4th. This agrees with the latest discovery of today's science which shows the Stars came Millions of years after the Big Bang.

RRR:>>birds and whales before reptiles and insects,

Every living creature had it's beginnings in the water on the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21 Some came forth before others. Bacteria appeared some 3.7 Billion years ago on our earth while man did not diverge from Chimps and Bonobos until some 4-5 Million years ago.

RRR:>>and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

False. Plants came before animals on the first earth. All animals on our earth had their beginnings, from the water, some 3.7 Billion years ago.

RRR:>>2. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

The first world was made the 2nd Day and our world was not made until the 5th Day. You are confusing our evening and morning with a world you know nothing about.

RRR:>>3. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

When you have an object with water above and below it, it is surrounded by water. This is the difference between the world of Adam and our Cosmos. We are not surrounded by water.

RRR:>>4. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

Jesus is the Light of the first 3 days. He is also the Light of the third Heaven. Rev 21:23

RRR:>>5. God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11

God spoke in Genesis 1:11 and Jesus brought forth plants to fill the garden just after He made Adam. Genesis 2:8

RRR:>>6. In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

The stars gave mankind a measure of time. They also showed farmers when to plant crops. Astrology is the perversion of these signs.

RRR:>>7. God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

How would you tell ancient man about the Moon? We know today this infomation about the Moon, but it didn't matter to early man.

RRR:>>8. "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

Again, you confuse the forming of the first heaven with our's. Our's was not made until Billions of years after the first Day or Age.

RRR:>>9. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

God is explaining His work to ancient men. Today, we know that God is telling us that He caused the BB which produced the Stars.

RRR:>>10. In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24

Not so. Adam was NOT evolved from any other living creature. Adam was made Billions of years BEFORE the beasts of the field and some birds were made from the dust at the beginning of the 6th Day.

RRR:>>11. God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26

This is prophecy of a future event which will not be fulfilled until we are in heaven.

RRR:>>12. God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28

Prophecy of a future event.

RRR:>>13. "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."
Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29

Prophecy of a future event in the third heaven.

RRR:>>14. All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

Prophecy of a future event.

RRR:>>15. "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31

Prophecy of a future event.

RRR:>>16. In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

We live today at Genesis 1:27 since God is still creating mankind in Christ. Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of a future event. Each of God's Days or Ages is some 4.5 Billion years in length. Today is the 6th Day.

RRR:>>17. Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7

Humans were a Special Creation, made from the dust of the ground. All other creatures, except beasts of the field and birds, which Adam named, were created from the water on the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21

RRR:>>18. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22

Agreed. It took Billions of years.

RRR:>>19. God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

Ignorance. If I have one of my ribs removed surgically, my children would have all of their's. Right?

RRR:>>20. God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

The serpent is Satan and if he eats in Hell, he will have to eat dust.

RRR:>>21. Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18

In heaven, there will be no thorns nor poisionious plants.

RRR:>>22. Seth lived 912 years. 5:8
23. Enos lived 905 years. 5:11
24. Cainan lived 910 years. 5:14
25. Mahalaleel lived 895 years. 5:17

This was on the first Earth which was totally different from our present Earth. The LORD told us that man would live for 120 years AFTER he married and produced offspring with the sons of God whose origin was in the water on the 5th Day.

On our Planet, the LORD's prophecy was fulfilled and today, everyone dies BEFORE they are 120 years of Age.

As you can see, it is very easy to refute your Skeptics Bible. You should send them this post and tell them to quit spreading their falsehoods to good people. They should be ashamed of their ignorance of God's Holy Word.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:47:37 PM PST
Ben West says:
IFeelFree says:
Ben,
I believe that is Paul speaking in 1 Cr 15. He never even met Jesus (except in a vision, as he claims), and his teaching is a perversion of what Jesus taught.

Dear IFF, Not so. Paul was taken to the 3rd Heaven in 11 Corinthians 12:2 and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ from Jesus, Himself. That is WHY the other apostles accepted him.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 6:50:42 PM PST
Ben West says:
Joe W says:
Ben: Try again?

Joe: Why? You haven't actually addressed a single point I raised.

Dear Joe, Go find a fourth grader and have them explain my post to you.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 7:43:59 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
BW: Paul was taken to the 3rd Heaven in 11 Corinthians 12:2 and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ from Jesus, Himself.

IFF: Do you know what the "3rd Heaven", which this verse refers to, is? It is not some place up in the skies somewhere. It refers to a particular state of consciousness, a state of ecstasy in which visionary experiences arise. These visions should not be taken at face value without external confirmation. As I said, Paul had a vision. That does not mean that whatever he saw or heard was a direct communication from Jesus. Even if it were, we don't know to what extent Paul may have misinterpreted the communication, or added his own ideas. if one regards Paul's claims as unreliable, there is no good reason to believe in vicarious salvation.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 7:52:35 PM PST
Joe W says:
Ben: Dear Joe, Go find a fourth grader and have them explain my post to you.

Zing!

Posted on Feb 20, 2013 8:20:54 PM PST
"Go find a fourth grader and have them explain my post to you."

Haven't read it, but I bet it would take a fourth grader to explain it. They still believe in fairy tales, too.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 10:43:46 PM PST
Ben: As you can see, it is very easy to refute your Skeptics Bible.

Rachel: And yet you didn't. A bald denial fueled by extensive moving of the goalposts doesn't make a refutation.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 20, 2013 10:47:17 PM PST
doulos says:
Theism, Atheism, and Big Bang Cosmology Pretty pricey right now. Here is his website. www.reasonablefaith.org a lot of free reading there. Hope that is helpful.
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