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The End Of The Noah's Ark Myth

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Initial post: Aug 24, 2011 10:35:54 AM PDT
There are countless scientific arguments whict prove the global flood as described in Genesis did not (and could not) have occurred. Clever creationists commonly refute these facts with pseudoscientific answers or a misrepresentations of the facts.
But here's a line of inquiry that has not been discussed widely, and those who believe in the global flood scenario can't have any reasonable explanation for. -
Anyone with half a brain should admit this information is a myth killer.
Creationists usually counter the argument that the biodiversity we see on earth today is not problematic for one's belief in the biblical global flood. They claim that, despite the unique animals distributed throughout the world today, Noah wouldn't have needed to gather up every species of animal, because "scientific creationism" allows that micro-evolution - small changes that occurred after all the animals had been released from the Ark - would bring about the variation and vast number of species we can observe on the planet today. It's an argument that admits limited evolution, but rejects large scale adaptations over time.
They claim, Noah simply needed to gather up the major "kinds" of animals, which it is claimed are fixed by creation and cannot evolve into different kinds at the macro level. Of course this isn't what the fossil record shows, but it does provide some room for ongoing exchanges between biblical creationists and those who reject Noah's Ark on scientific evidence.
Here's where the global flood story really falls apart.
The bible never mentions animals that live in or under the soil. Of course, it would be somewhat plausible that Noah could have dug up or trapped a mated pair of the obvious mega-fauna, like rabbits, moles and rodents. But what about the smaller organisms found under the soil?
In any cubic foot of soil, there are millions of creatures... and they differ dramatically based on location and specific environment. Without the activities of soil organisms, organic materials would accumulate on the surface and there would be no nutrients for plants. It's a process that takes time.
The next smallest group of animals, called macrofauna ranging from 2-20mm in size, can be seen with the unaided eye - but Noah would need to determine what "kinds" of macrofauna need to rescued from the impending flood. There are woodlice, earthworms (6000 species, with only 120 species distributed worldwide) beetles (at least 300,00 species with very specific dietary and environmental requirements), centipedes, slugs, snails (24,000+ species of terrestrial gastropods) ants and harvestmen. You can see where I'm going with this, right?
Next, Noah would need to locate the right kinds of mesofauna, organisms that are barely visible. There are tardigrades, mites (48,000+ species) and springtales. Springtales would present a problem for Noah - there are up to 100,000 individuals in any given cubic foot of soil and there are 7000 varieties found in different types of soils to sort through. Roundworms (28,000 species) have nearly half of their "kinds" living as parasites, totally dependent of being gathered up with the right kind and sufficient number of hosts for the long voyage ahead.
Finally, poor Noah would have a tough time with rescuing the microfauna - microscopes had not be invented yet, and there are countless millions of yeast's, bacteria, fungi and protozoans to be gathered up. Although invisible and unknown at the time, Noah would need to consider that over a million different microfauna per teaspoon are found in different types of soil conditions. So he'd need to gather representative samples of soils and maintain on the Ark at the correct temperature, moisture content and soil chemistry throughout his voyage.
All of these soil and subsoil organisms would need to be considered before the waters of the great flood rose, covering all of the earth in oxygen blocking depth and with the enormous crushing weight of 3 miles of brackish water for 40 days and 40 nights. A global flood would essentially sterilize all of the earths surface after the waters vanished (where all that water came from or went is another huge issue demanding additional miracles)
The millions of tiny or invisible organisms would need to be maintained by Noah and returned to the compressed and damaged soil with enough of the appropriate amount of chemicals, nutrients, moisture and prey for these creatures to obtain a new foothold for survival.
Care to make a counter argument?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 10:51:10 AM PDT
Max Flash says:
Steven Marley: All of these soil and subsoil organisms would need to be considered before the waters of the great flood rose, covering all of the earth in oxygen blocking depth and with the enormous crushing weight of 3 miles of brackish water for 40 days and 40 nights.

Max: The biblical story states that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, but if you read it carefully you'll note that the flood waters covered the earth for a year.

Posted on Aug 24, 2011 11:56:10 AM PDT
Indeed curious.
Anyone ever notice that Noah was building a wooden boat?
Any also ever notice that God brought the critters, animals, etc... to Noah?

I'm curious how many of those critters Mr. Marley is talking about came aboard during the buiding of the boat, but eating their way into the wood. And while the wood was "pitched", I'm curious how deeply they'd need to have eaten their way in to be protected from the effects of the pitch.

It'd be about the only way I could see them surviving, without actually being dug up by hand, and placed into a container.

Then again, we don't hear about the details of all the animals that boarded the ark, now, do we.
How do we know that Noah didn't forget some? I hear the unicorn is a favorite of many that appears to have been left behind.
seems to me that if we're going to bicker over something that was "left behind" or some point such as Mr. Marley brings up here, we'd better have more facts than we do.
Such as-- where are the details that explain how many animals, why do we only read that God brought them two by two, oh, wait.....
We read--
and of everything that creeps on the earth

Seems to me that Mr. Marley's statement is hereby answered.

Posted on Aug 24, 2011 12:13:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 12:14:15 PM PDT
ErikR says:
That a thread like this even exists in the year 2011 makes me sad (and a bit frightened).

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 1:37:51 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
I suspect the story of Noah's ark is a mythological story as are many of the ideas in the Book Of Genesis. That doesn't mean it's not true however. Many of the mythological stories are true. Indeed Zeus and the various mythological gods are very real.

Like where it says God created everything in 6 days. This means something but it's not 6 of our days. It would be interesting to know exactly what it does mean. Although strangely even though Edgar Cayce agreed that it doesn't mean 6 of our days he added:

"Not that this would have been impossible."

Mythology uses allegories and metaphors to explain truths that are based on a metaphysical, not a literal, reality. Understanding what the mythological stories really mean is not easy to do. There are many concepts which cannot be easily expressed using language. That's why for example the myths contain strange statements like people being born out of someone's head.

The global flood myth is found in the mythologies of many religions, not just the bible. When exactly this happened I don't know but I have heard theories that it was as long as 25,000 years ago. If this is true that's a very long time for a story to survive.

Christ believed in the story of Noah's Ark which is interesting. He said people just kept eating and drinking, getting married, etc., right up to the day the flood hit.

The Mayans, Egyptians, and Hopi Indians among others believe that the human race has been wiped out and had to start over again several times.

Many people are wondering what's going to happen on 12/21/12. On that specific date according to the Mayan Long Count calendar two things are going to happen:

1) The Earth will complete the 'wobble' on its axis and return to the starting point.

2) The sun is going to move into the location where the plane of our solar system and the plane of the Milky Way Galaxy intersect. In other words the Earth, the Sun, and the super massive black hole in the center of the galaxy are going to become aligned. The Mayans felt that this alignment will mark the end of the current astrological cycle and a new 'Platonic Year' will begin. That 25,800 year cycle is broken up into the 12 astrological ages.

How both of those things could happen on the same exact day shows how much order and precision there is in the universe. People like the Egyptians and the Mayans didn't think the positions of the stars are a coincidence. They believed just the opposite.

The Mayans were obsessed with time and with the spiritual relationships between the human race and the universe. They felt the different ages all have their unique influences and this time we are in now would be a time of great and accelerated change which it has been.

We are living in a very unique time right now, astrologically speaking. Whatever's going to happen on 12/21/12, if anything, only happens once every 25,800 years or so.

Floods. Volcanoes. Earthquakes. Who knows what may get us this time. I think Saint Peter suggested that it will be fire this time if I recall correctly from his letter in the bible.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 1:44:30 PM PDT
The bible says "On" but not from "Within" the earth, doesn't it. Subterranean is the operative word. Most of the subterranean organisms I've described don't "creep", either. The bronze age authors and editors of the bible didn't know about these things, that's why they are not mentioned in the bible.
Only a handful of "critters" have the ability to eat wood and reside in timber, fewer still could eat through pitched wood. Most subterranean life forms require very specific and narrow soil conditions to survive - including proper moisture, temperature, nutrients, acidity and food (mostly associated prey) I did not mention it, initially, but it's important to consider that some of these unique microscopic soil dwellers are found as much as a mile below the surface of the earth, so Noah not only would have required a microscope, but deep core drilling equipment would have been needed, as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 2:05:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 2:25:30 PM PDT
Jeff - You say many mythological stories were based on things which happened. Certainly this is true. Lightning bolts hit the earth and it was once thought that a god(s), like Zeus, threw them down from the sky... it was the stuff of mythology. We now understand how lightning forms and why it strikes the earth, and no god(s) required.
We now know enough about the water cycle to understand with certainty that (unless you apply a special miracle) there isn't enough water available on or within the earth to cover it in a global flood. We have correlated the earths geological strata and find no evidence for anything remotely representing a worldwide flood event - yet, we have found traces of Iridium that confirms a bollide impact event of global proportions 65 MYA. Why is a thin layer of Iridium clearly detectable to us, but no evidence of a uniform global flood? The ancients created myths to explain natural events they could not comprehend - so, of course, there was some basis in observable fact.
Based on what the could observe, the Mayans, Egyptians and Hopi's believed that the earth was the center of the universe, and that stars were small fires on a fixed dome. Historical Jesus never heard of a virus or germ theory, either. (An interesting theological side-question might be "If Jesus, as it is claimed, was the son of an all-knowing creator, you'd think he might have, just once, made a definitive statement to his followers about bacterial infections, or revealed some simple truth about cosmology, but his understanding of nature seems like that of a mere mortal and grounded to those ancient times" .. why?)
However, it's pure fantasy to assume that any mythology, or a metaphysical conclusion extracted from these myths, can inform us about reality.

If you are one of the reader's who think this, or any other post here, doesn't add to the discussion - please state your objections and reasons why you believe a comment is irrelevant for others to contemplate and/or comment on. Ignorance and cowardice are not the finest human virtues to exhibit.

Posted on Aug 24, 2011 2:14:18 PM PDT
When I saw the title of the thread, I figured that maybe somebody had announced the invention of an efficacious anti-stupidity pill, but now I see it's merely another futile attempt to reason with the reason-immune...

Sorry Steve, but if logic and empirical evidence actually mattered to people, there would be none of those goofy biblical literalists around in the first place.


In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 2:20:26 PM PDT
Hey James, "long time no Amazon" , my friend. Based on the responses so far, little has changed.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 5:30:20 PM PDT
Do you really think that you have ended the Noah's Ark discussion for good?

There are problems in the Biblical account for sure.
You could not put all the Earths living creatures on one boat. Normally.
If the Earth was completely covered by water, there is no way, that all the water would be gone. Normally.
But that does not mean it could not have happened.

It has been stated before that if a landlubber had been taken far enough out to sea that he would no longer be able to see land. So that takes care of your "the whole world was covered by water" bit.

We have had many extinctions in Earths history. An event like a deluge would be one of them.
If our Bible God is an extraterrestrial, he could have an entire DNA library of most of Earths living creatures. Not impossible, given enough time. You realize we would be dealing with an intelligent civilization that is beyond our scientific grasp. So even if all the creatures were wiped out, there may be a possibility that they could have been replaced. I don't think this is what happened but I leave it open as a possibility.

The world is full of Noah's. If you think that the Bible spread across the whole world and influenced all these other cultures to believe that they had a flood too then you are giving the Bible a lot of credit and power in early history. More likely all these other cultures came up with a flood because there was a flood.

What may make more sense is that Noah was warned ahead of time to make a craft. He did and his people put all the local animals they could onto a craft to ride out the storm. Going by a theory put out a decade ago, this God/ET could have pulled the moon out of orbit and this may have caused a pole shift and massive tidal waves all across the planet. These waves would not have overrun all the land but they could have made a big impact. Not all life would be destroyed but it would be an event that no one surviving it would ever forget. It is something that would be written down the world over. When they compiled the first Biblical book they would not leave that one out.

Once the moon was placed back into orbit, the waters would calm down and the clouds which would have built up covering the planet would disapate. So now we have solved where all the water would have come from and where it all went.

Of course we cannot prove or disprove this theory without moving the moon. But since we are dealing with a supreme being of some kind, it does not mean it could not happen.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 5:44:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 6:35:44 PM PDT
Joe W says:
Antediluvian Priestess: "Of course we cannot prove or disprove this theory without moving the moon. But since we are dealing with a supreme being of some kind, it does not mean it could not happen. "

Joe: If we were dealing with a supreme being of some kind, then why bother with taking the moon out of orbit, or any other of the earstwhile pseudo-physical explanations that we hear? If it was done by what is effectively magic, then skip the concerns about physics. Just say that God made more water than the volume of the earth appear from nowhere, adjusted the biomass so that it would fit and thrive on a wooden boat, then removed the water, extracted the biomass (pkunzip?) and erased all physical evidence of such an event ever having occured from the geological, biological, and achaeological record.

edited for silly word.

Posted on Aug 24, 2011 6:21:14 PM PDT
(®_0) says:
Has anybody mentioned fish? Most fish live in a stable predictable environment, with the fresh or salt water conditions and food they need to survive. Many fish need plants or rocks or corals to survive normally. A giant worldwide flood for a year would kill a vast majority of the species of fish and water environment related creatures. Most Salt water fish could not survive a diluted ocean. River, swamp, and many lake fish would die or would not be able to reproduce successfully.

Then AFTER the flood, somehow all these fish (that survived) would somehow make it back to their unique environments and start again. Totally unlikely by any standard.

What about trees? Almost all trees on the Earth would die during the flood. One could argue that some seeds would survive and grow again, sure however unlikely. Still, this would be radical extreme climate change on the Earth.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 6:32:55 PM PDT
... and magical monkey's might fly out of our b*tt's at night. too. Have you heard about Occam's Razor or The Principle of Simplicity?
More importantly, just because you can imagine something doesn't mean that without some shred of evidence we should take the time to consider it's validity. You need to present some evidence beyond your fantasies.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 6:41:10 PM PDT
Thanks o_O Creationists do say that trees re-sprouted from seeds. However, the fish argument is a valid one. Noah would require many aquarium tanks onboard the Ark in order for most species to survive. As anyone who's tried to keep tropical fish should know, fish have very different and specific environmental needs. Very few, if any could actually survive a highly diluted, homogeneous ocean environment. Creationists simply wish that problem away by "claiming without evidence" that basic kinds would survive - and research shows they're dead wrong - and micro evolve into todays various species.
The fossil record of ancient fishes is sufficient proof that what the creationists suggest is nonsense... but they're slow learners.

Posted on Aug 24, 2011 6:47:42 PM PDT
getalife says:
This whole thing started when Noah's youngest son, Billy Bob let the bathtub overflow. Noah wants to make a point to a stupid kid. Some guy hears about it, thinks he can make some money and decides to write a book. Takes a little dramatic license and there you go.......

All because some twit forgot to turn off the water.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 6:51:18 PM PDT
brunumb says:
Antediluvian Priestess : "...this God/ET could have pulled the moon out of orbit and this may have caused a pole shift and massive tidal waves all across the planet."

What's the point of having God cause the flood by shifting the moon? If you are going to invoke ridiculous miracles, why not just have God 'create' rain to directly match what it says in Genesis. Mixing pseudo-scientific explanations with miraculous events is useless when God can supposedly do *anything*.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 6:54:41 PM PDT
Frank Paris says:
"But since we are dealing with a supreme being of some kind, it does not mean it could not happen."


In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 7:00:05 PM PDT
brunumb says:
Stephen Marley : "Creationists do say that trees re-sprouted from seeds."

Most seeds would have been destroyed by the flood waters anyway. Those that survived and actually germinated would still require many years to regenerate forests. Surviving seeds would also have been dispersed globally by the waters covering the entire planet, so that different continents should not exhibit their own unique flora.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 7:12:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 7:14:15 PM PDT
Bubba says:
Very few tree seeds would be viable after being soaked in brackish water for a year.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 7:35:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 7:39:29 PM PDT
Bubba & brunumb - Thanks, very true - The lines of evidence against the possibility of a global flood are so overwhelming. Obviously, a dendrochronologist and/or paleobotanist would have much to add to the conversation about impossibility of a global flood.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 8:09:20 PM PDT
Most modern Christians and Jews consider the Big Bang theory had a "banger" and that God's time clock is not just Earth's time clock.

As for the great flood, mariner Joseph Ballard, the chap who discovered the Titanic, made an expedition to the Black Sea (once a freshwater lake) to look for sunken ships. The top 300 feet of the Black Sea is a muckish fresh water, where the bottom 1000 feet are warmer salt water made up of hydrogen-sulfides acting as a preservative for organic wooden ships.

Ballard spotted what he thought were city walls or building foundations along the ancient freshwater sunken shoreline. The question remains, what caused the Mediterranean Sea to break through the Dardanelles and flood this large inland lake? Tsunamis from the erupting volcano on the Island of Thera just north of Crete, the most active violent volcano in human history? Or, did the rising tides from the last iceage erode the land bridge across Turkey? Surely, the lake's inhabitants much have been watching this encroaching disaster in great trepidation.

See: Black Sea deluge theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cached
The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the ...

Think of those Egyptian pyramids, once plated in white marble with a gold peak on their tops. This is proof that God is a volcano.

What do you think about evolution as "Intelligent Design" by God?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 8:39:49 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Aug 24, 2011 9:36:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 24, 2011 9:40:25 PM PDT
Rachel Verdon,
I don't really understand your comments, especially as it relates to the impossibility of Noah's Ark - you're dealing with a spectrum of mythical/hypothetical questions, none of which address the topic of this discussion.
I don't see the connection between explaining modern science and addressing basic morality to bronze age people. I suppose if one could show the ancients modern technology - especially something like a machine gun or a flashlight - they'd think of that person as god and worship them. However, and I'm just guessing here, that if you tried to explain semiconductor technology to bronze age people without a computer to back up your claims, they'd assume you were a madman or a demon and kill you. Have you read "Guns Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond? If you haven't, I'd recommend it.
As for morality, I think even the most primitive proto-human understood the "Golden Rule" which is simply the cognitive recognition of others having similar needs and desires, which forms the basis of empathy without the need for a god.
Finally - RE the Black Sea Deluge Theory. This regional geologic event might have provided the underlying fact which helped to foster global flood myths.
So what? It certainly doesn't advance the plausibility of the biblical story of Noah's Ark one iota.

Your statement about "pyramids being proof of god being a volcano" makes no sense
Your statement about evolution as "Intelligent Design by God" makes no sense. You might as well imagine evolution as "Intelligent Design by violent pixies" who just wanted to create a hostile biosphere dependent on predators, parasites and pathogens.
Try to focus on reality and the subject at hand.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 26, 2011 7:35:29 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 26, 2011 7:48:06 PM PDT
When I wrote "God is a volcano" I spoke in jest, hoping you might chuckle a bit.

As for old Noah, I think he was a real man, the leader of a tribe that lived along the Black Sea/Lake some 6000 BC.

There is an interesting archaeological dig on the coast of North West Syria, a farming town named Ebla, settled by two separate tribes that were both literate. One of them spoke ancient Syriac and produced a history in cuneiform of the Gilgamesh Epic (Noah's Ark) and the second tribe which spoke a an unknown language mixture of ancient Hebrew and Phoenician went about creating a cuneiform dictionary to translate the two tribes of Ebla's history.

The soil was sifted at Ebla for artifacts, and it was discovered these 2 tribes had a simple farming diet of wheat, lentils, and raspberries. Thorns and thistles are the first plant life that surface after a large volcanic ash fall, which greatly strengthens my suspicions that Thera blew its stack and triggered a tsunami that broke through the Dardanelles to create the great flood.

Thera has erupted twice in human history, being ten times more powerful than Krakatoa in Indonesia. Once its cone collapsed, a deep cauldron sucked in the sea, creating a backlash of tidal waves that wiped out all civilization along the Mediterranean shores, basically the known world of Western civilization. A similar event is suspected to have happened during the biblical Exodus. Record of Thera's second eruption during Exodus is made on the obelisk outside of Queen Hatshepsut's palace at Luxor.

For some time, the archaeological dig was halted by Assad because it proved both Arabs and Jews lived in harmony on the same land some 8,000 years Before Present. Take a look at some of these books:

Archives of Ebla: An Empire Inscribed in Clay (Translation of Ebla: Un Impero Inciso Nell'Argilla) Giovanni Pettinato

Ebla: A revelation in archeology by Chaim Bermant
(there are many other books on Ebla)

"Exodus" by Ian Wilson (might be out of print)

The Bible Is History by Ian Wilson

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 26, 2011 7:44:04 PM PDT
You write: "As for morality, I think even the most primitive proto-human understood the 'Golden Rule' which is simply the cognitive recognition of others having similar needs and desires, which forms the basis of empathy without the need for a god."

I have to disagree with you here. Love needs to be demonstrated and taught, since birth. We have children growing up without mothers today, just like weeds, raised in daycare centers completely void of human compassion but cowed into gangs for survival - something akin to Lord of the Flies.

Let me give an example. This afternoon, on the Michael Medved show, a caller rang up at the close of the hour boldly stating that our government awarded an average of 1.8 million dollars to the surviving families of 9/11 and this was much too much money, these people were not deserving. Medved said - "well, ah - yeah." Such crass greed and envy against people who had experienced such a cruelty was beyond the pale. Medved feigns himself as a "conservative talk show host" but honestly, this guy is a total heartless hoax.

There is something missing in these zombies.
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