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Douay Rheims--Ecclesiaticus


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Initial post: May 26, 2010 8:47:23 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 8:48:34 AM PDT
The fear of social rejection or persecution deters some people from receiving Christ as Savior. Often, unbelievers will not confess Christ because they are more concerned with their status among their peers than doing God's will.

In biblical times, these were the Pharisees whose love of position and the esteem of others blinded them, "for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." --they still exist today.

TKK: All are invited to participate in this study of Ecclesiaticus. I use the Douay Rheims version of the bible because it was the version the Lord arranged for me to have when I first met Him (before I knew there were other versions). After I came to trust Him, He switched me to the KJV...because of the church I was later indoctrinated into, I learned to read other versions as well.

I'm telling you upfront that I don't know where God will lead this study to (I have been wanting to discuss Wisdom Scripture for about two weeks now)...but I invite Him here and now to take it to wherever it pleases Him to go.

Posted on May 26, 2010 8:54:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 9:04:35 AM PDT
Two easy questions: According to the following scripture, what is Wisdom? What is the purpose of Wisdom?

1 All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time.

2 Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?

3 Who hath searched out the wisdom of God that goeth before all things?

4 Wisdom hath been created before all things, and the understanding of prudence from everlasting.

5 The word of God on high is the fountain of wisdom, and her ways are everlasting commandments.

6 To whom hath the root of wisdom been revealed, and who hath known her wise counsels?

7 To whom hath the discipline of wisdom been revealed and made manifest? and who hath understood the multiplicity of her steps?

8 There is one most high Creator Almighty, and a powerful king, and greatly to be feared, who sitteth upon his throne, and is the God of dominion.

9 He created her in the Holy Ghost, and saw her, and numbered her, and measured her.

10 And he poured her out upon all his works, and upon all flesh according to his gift, and hath given her to them that love him.

11 The fear of the Lord is honour, and glory, and gladness, and a crown of joy.

12 The fear of the Lord shall delight the heart, and shall give joy, and gladness, and length of days.

13 With him that feareth the Lord, it shall go well in the latter end, and in the day of his death he shall be blessed.

14 The love of God is honourable wisdom.

15 And they to whom she shall shew herself love her by the sight, and by the knowledge of her great works.

16 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and was created with the faithful in the womb, it walketh with chosen women, and is known with the just and faithful.

17 The fear of the Lord is the religiousness of knowledge.

18 Religiousness shall keep and justify the heart, it shall give joy and gladness.

19 It shall go well with him that feareth the Lord, and in the days of his end he shall be blessed.

20 To fear God is the fulness of wisdom, and fulness is from the fruits thereof.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 8:54:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 9:05:18 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
TheKingskid wrote (in both the thread title and the OP):

> Ecclesiaticus

Are you referring to the book known as Ecclesiasticus, which is also called Sirach?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiasticus

Or, since you've also mentioned the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible, which doesn't include Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), are you referring to the book of Ecclesiastes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes

Thanks in advance for clarifying,

Prob

Edit: from the verses you have posted in your second post, at first glance it appears as though you meant Ecclesiastes, the book that does appear in the KJV.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:01:04 AM PDT
Probabilist:

I am...However, I will be using the Douay Rheims version.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:03:44 AM PDT
Prob,

You are mistaken. The KJV Ecclesiastes begins as follows:

1The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all [is] vanity.

The wisdom scripture I am referring to resembles the Book of Proverbs.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:04:50 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Ecclesiasticus, then?

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:08:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 9:21:28 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Ecclesiasticus, which I haven't spent much time with, is also known as Sirach, or as The Wisdom of Ben Sira.

It is included in Roman Catholic Bibles (such as the Douay Rheims), but is not included in Protestant Bibles (such as the King James Version).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiasticus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirach

Is this the book that you wish to explore here, then?

Prob

_______________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay-Rheims_Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:13:02 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 9:13:20 AM PDT
Prob: Ecclesiasticus, which I haven't spent much time with, is also known as Sirach, or as The Wisdom of Ben Sira. Is this the book that you wish to explore here, then?

TKK: What is listed as Ecclesiasticus, Chapt 1:1-20 in your book? Is it the same as I have copied here in post?

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:18:32 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 9:20:02 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Hi, TKK -

What you have copied into your second post corresponds to the first 20 verses in chapter 1 of Ecclesiasticus (i.e., Sirach, or The Wisdom of Ben Sira) in the Douai-Rheims Bible, which is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible.

A link at the bottom of the wikipedia article on Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) leads to this URL, which shows both the English verses from the Douai-Rheims and the Latin verses from the Vulgate:

http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=26

There is no corresponding book in the King James Bible, since Protestant Bibles don't include this book.

All the best,

Prob

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:25:02 AM PDT
Prob: There is no corresponding book in the King James Bible, since Protestant Bibles don't include this book.

TKK: True. Some may be confused by the title Ecclesiates which is in the KJV.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 9:42:57 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes

Posted on May 26, 2010 9:56:48 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 10:44:14 AM PDT
16 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and was created with the faithful in the womb, it walketh with chosen women, and is known with the just and faithful.

It would seem that from the reading of verse 16, a person cannot even begin to think of him/herself as wise until he/she fears (believes/respects) God AND this has been determined from before his/her conception.

I think this is why in other areas of the bible, God has no respect or use for "earthly" wisdom...in fact, most people used by God are not educated in theology and/or other such disciplines. I fear that their usefulness to Him may be limited BECAUSE of the "worldly" knowledge they've gained.

This is why He says "Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened"--Ro 1:21

Also, concerning that same scripture it mentions that not many women are counted as wise...only the "chosen".

--People are insulted by God, but they shouldn't be. Biblical wisdom does not mean what you think it does...this is why it is important to investigate the scriptures using the guidance of the holy spirit--then you can apply what you've learned to your life.

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:05:08 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 10:06:15 AM PDT
13 With him that feareth the Lord, it shall go well in the latter end, and in the day of his death he shall be blessed.
19 It shall go well with him that feareth the Lord, and in the days of his end he shall be blessed.

--Even though your "former" days may be fraught with battle, betrayal upon betrayal, and beset with all manner of problems on all sides...God promises (at least 2x) that if you fear (believe and respect) Him, your latter days shall be blessed. I would rather have this then to live in prosperity, peace and happiness all of my younger days...beset with problems in the latter time.

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:08:33 AM PDT
Q: 6 To whom hath the root of wisdom been revealed, and who hath known her wise counsels?

A: 16 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and was created with the faithful in the womb, it walketh with chosen women, and is known with the just and faithful.

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:09:42 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Micah 6:8
1 Thes 4:11-12

,.-)

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:16:07 AM PDT
So many people read this book, that book, and a whole myriad of other "ventures" including going to the most prestigious colleges and universities...for what? To gain wisdom. And while it is true that all or any number of these things may add knowledge to your "repetoire" or "bag of tricks", but only God can give you wisdom:

1 All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time.
10 And he poured her out upon all his works, and upon all flesh according to his gift, and hath given her to them that love him.
20 To fear God is the fullness of wisdom, and fullness is from the fruits thereof.

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:17:32 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

- Micah 6:8

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 10:18:07 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 10:18:25 AM PDT
Prob:
I can fully appreciate your comments.

Posted on May 26, 2010 10:23:33 AM PDT
17 The fear of the Lord is the religiousness of knowledge.
18 Religiousness shall keep and justify the heart, it shall give joy and gladness.

--So then, the fear of God is the "religion" of knowledge?

--Can it be that...religion is something you practice within yourself...not on others?

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 10:26:23 AM PDT
ColdShot says:
why THAT version?

what does it have that others don't?

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 10:32:32 AM PDT
Prob: "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

TKK: You are right. To whom much is given, much is required. I will endeavor to do better than I have in past times. I appreciate your generosity.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2010 10:34:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2010 10:38:32 AM PDT
Coldshot, it's deep!

I just like it...it's my "baby-christian" bible! It's like the King James version but, it has the "missing books" which really do answer SO MANY questions and tie up so many loose ends--I don't know who authorized their removal (well, actually I do...but I forget right now) but they shouldn't have.

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2010 11:17:18 AM PDT
J. G. Lewis says:
TKK, Prob, and ColdShot: Greetings

Concerning one's usefulness being limited by one's vain confidence in the *education* picked up at colleges and universities (which may, or may not be true; typically it is fraught with error) - even theological instutions - I will agree...If one looks at verse 17 and 18

17: The fear of the Lord is the religiousness of knowledge
18: Religiousness shall keep and justify the heart, it shall give joy and gladness

So then I believe that knowledge - all knowledge - has a religiousness to it; it being rooted in the fear (and the love of the Lord - v.18) [Might one view it as a tree, with the roots and trunk merely being faith?]

Because so much that is taught in schools is inconsistent with faith, one is merely being "educated" in error.

- John G. Lewis

Posted on May 27, 2010 11:34:07 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 27, 2010 11:38:27 AM PDT
J. G. Lewis says:
Remmember Paul talking about being "puffed up"? I think that this can happen to Christians, too.

By the way, TKK, I purchased a Douay-Rheims version of Ecclesiasticus. I presume there is a Douay-Rheims version of the Book of Wisdom?

Do you know anything about the Oesterley (editor) edition of the Book of Wisdom?

- John

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2010 12:41:30 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 27, 2010 12:46:11 PM PDT
John: Concerning one's usefulness being limited by one's vain confidence in the *education* picked up at colleges and universities (which may, or may not be true; typically it is fraught with error) - even theological instutions - I will agree...If one looks at verse 17 and 18

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

TKK: I'm glad I received my collegiate education AFTER I met the Lord as opposed to BEFORE so I am careful not to ascribe education's "lack of usefulness" to vain confidence--it's never that simple. Because of Jer. 31:33 I think that whatever we "feed" our minds, imprints on our psyche as well...for example, If you are born American, your native language is probably English so, even if you move to a foreign country and learn a second language...even if you don't speak english, you will probably still "think" in English! I am saying that it is easier to learn information written on a clean sheet of paper than a cluttered piece, you see? If you have been studying scientific rhetoric and such for most of your life and then Jesus introduces Himself to you, because of your original orientation having faith may always be a challenge for you because you are accustomed to receiving empirical evidence...as a result, His uses for you may have limitations because of your unbelief.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with an education...you just can't get wisdom from it but, God knows how to navigate His people around it.

I just think that people should seek Him for wisdom because He is the source. I hope I'm making myself somewhat clear--I'm trying to answer you but I admit that my attentions are divided right now.
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  21
Total posts:  422
Initial post:  May 26, 2010
Latest post:  Nov 14, 2012

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