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Why Does Everyone LOVE Atheism So Much!!!!


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Showing 326-350 of 355 posts in this discussion
Posted on Aug 15, 2009 2:18:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 15, 2009 2:24:22 PM PDT
Raven says:
Dulcinea says:
>LOL! What rubbish! Christians love to suffer and hurt but atheists don't so that's the reason we don't believe in god????

Firstly, I didn't say Christians LOVE to suffer, merely that accepting the faith almost always opens the believer up to the realities of the hurting world in which we live

>We fear emotions like love and devotion?

I simply mean that given the state of the world, offering unconditional love, and the inherent risk of being hurt, is difficult.

>Our families and friends will be surprised by this claim of yours. And you call that "sophisticated thinking"?

What do I call sophisticated thinking?

>You said "Emotion is viewed as weakness." And then, "Christians, however, tend to embrace emotion, see it as necessary to life." So I conclude from those two statements that christians are weak. And since you claim atheists deny our emotions, that must make us strong!!

I believe we are more open to the risk of being hurt. Look at what Christians have endured historically, and I'll think you agree that Christians see the value of Christ as worth the risk of pain.

>Do I understand you correctly?

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 2:22:28 PM PDT
Raven says:
To sfon:

I'm not truly trying to make a general statement, or imply that most, atheists are atheist because of this. It is simply what I have seen in a great many of my friends. I'm an aspiring writer, and I know I tend to make over-simplified statements from time to time, but in response to the question, it is my best answer.

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 2:30:21 PM PDT
Raven says:
> Aglęca says:
>Christians, they just think that they are better than you...

Christians, if they are genuine, do not "think" they're better than anyone. Blievers were not born into some upper-class citizenship, but are merely redeemed by the grace of God. It is a gift. So why, then, would we think that we are better than anyone?

> Aglęca says:
>Christian = think with in parameters (self admitted blind spots, you must always question the root assumption, or it must always be up for debate, and reevaluation, especially if new data suggests it should be rethought).

I would theorize that everyone thinks within some kind of parameters, whether we realize it or not. We are influenced by our upbringing, culture, etc. All these factors form parameters-or filters-to our thinking.

Moreover, yes I think people should always question and reevaluate. That is how our society continues to move forward. If we read a book written in the fifties and compare it to one written now, grammatical and stylistic differences will be apparent. That is because thought on how to write, and what is acceptable, is always evolving.

As Christians, we do question and reevaluate. Do you accept any idea and think that it will never change or that you will never need to rethink it?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 2:35:37 PM PDT
sfon says:
Raven says: "I'm not truly trying to make a general statement, or imply that most, atheists are atheist because of this. It is simply what I have seen in a great many of my friends. I'm an aspiring writer, and I know I tend to make over-simplified statements from time to time, but in response to the question, it is my best answer."

No harm done. I can forgive anyone for misunderstanding the nature of not believing in gods... there is a lot of misinformation out there.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 2:40:35 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 15, 2009 2:42:23 PM PDT
"As Christians, we do question and reevaluate." But they do not do that with this statement "Believers were not born into some upper-class citizenship [some are], but are merely redeemed by the grace of God [some Christians would, and do, disagree: Not by faith alone?]. It is a gift [so isn't our ability to doubt]. So why, then, would we think that we are better than anyone? [because you claim to have the Truth, and doesn't having the Truth and the gift of salvation better than not having it, if it wasn't then this "conversation" would not probably occur]"

"Do you accept any idea and think that it will never change or that you will never need to rethink it?" Yes, Zeus was a myth (but you know, he could turn out to be a historical person, or even real, its just not very likely, because reevaluation is needed when there is new evidence, and the only evidence for G*d is our existence and material reality, oh, and some books, but they have been reevaluated and have been found wanting, but if G*d does finally make a personal appearance to the World, and not disguised as some Man, who avoids telling his followers directly who he is supposed to be, and refers to the title of Son of Man, so yes, anything is possible, just not probably). Where you trying to set a trap?

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 2:52:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 15, 2009 3:00:29 PM PDT
Raven says:
>Aglęca says:

>"As Christians, we do question and reevaluate." But they do not do that with this statement "Believers were not born into some upper-class citizenship [some are], but are merely redeemed by the grace of God [some Christians would, and do, disagree: Not by faith alone?]. It is a gift [so isn't our ability to doubt]. So why, then, would we think that we are better than anyone?"

I really think that we should use the above statement when questioning, and that's really what I'm trying to get across. I'd love to see people find a middle ground, realizing and accepting differences. As you mentioned above, even within Christianity, there are divisions on theology, but we, as a society, need to stop letting differences destroy our chances at reaching a middle ground. In this life, people will not abandon their faiths-whatever that faith may be-so we need to somehow build bridges.

>Where you trying to set a trap?

No, I wasn't. I truly have no hidden agenda, just trying to debate my faith. Trust me when I say, I have nothing but respect for those that don't believe as I do. My best friend in the world is very, very atheistic. But we have found a middle ground and accept each other for who we are. I also have homosexual friends. Do I agree with it? Not really, but I respect them as people and I love to spend time with them.

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 3:17:44 PM PDT
"Actually the Bible tells us that there are not many who think themselves to be wise who BELIEVE. Sometimes the intellect can get in the way of one simply trusting God and taking Him at His Word. God uses the foolish things of this world to shame those who think they are smarter than He is...that is in the bible too. :)" From a Christian...

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 3:23:34 PM PDT
"In this life, people will not abandon their faiths-whatever that faith may be-so we need to somehow build bridges." I am not sure that this is possible, all we can do is, perhaps, agree to disagree and "live and let die" but your reply is a very reasonable reply and that is commendable, often I am just messing with people, I am sure that is obvious... Yet, there seems to be an irreducible Gap that surrounds the Gold Rule and the idea that God gives us the Truth (and any Truth can be used for this, but let us stick with God and Christainity). If you believe in the do unto others as they are to do unto you, then you are reaveled a truth that can save another, you might reason that this is something that you would want, such that if I new that something was going to hurt me, I would want to know. But remember do unto others as you would want them to do unto. I do not want others to convert me or save me with their truth, I do not preach to them and in turn do not want to be preached to. Do you see what i am getting at, i have written this, much better, in other posts. This is where I see an seeming insurmountable gap... how do we bridge this?

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 3:24:10 PM PDT
Raven says:
Aglęca :

Really? I didn't realize. I hope that nothing I said offended, because that wasn't my intention...

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 3:27:51 PM PDT
you did not offend me... not in the least. I take this and all the other forums with a huge gain of salt... its cool

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 3:33:13 PM PDT
sfon,

"Just so you know, Karen was only expressing her love for others, not diminishing Christianity. Karen is a Christian, and she is one of the many reasons for which I can say I love Christians. "

Ah, thanks! And you are one of the many reasons for which I can say I love atheists. :)

Karen

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 3:37:10 PM PDT
Raven says:
>Aglęca says:
>In this life, people will not abandon their faiths-whatever that faith may be-so we need to somehow build bridges." I am not sure that this is possible, all we can do is, perhaps, agree to disagree and "live and let die" but your reply is a very reasonable reply and that is commendable, often I am just messing with people, I am sure that is obvious... Yet, there seems to be an irreducible Gap that surrounds the Gold Rule and the idea that God gives us the Truth (and any Truth can be used for this, but let us stick with God and Christainity). If you believe in the do unto others as they are to do unto you, then you are reaveled a truth that can save another, you might reason that this is something that you would want, such that if I new that something was going to hurt me, I would want to know. But remember do unto others as you would want them to do unto. I do not want others to convert me or save me with their truth, I do not preach to them and in turn do not want to be preached to. Do you see what i am getting at, i have written this, much better, in other posts. This is where I see an seeming insurmountable gap... how do we bridge this?

I understand that you don't want others to preach to you. That is sort of the unwritten rule that me and my friend have. He knows where I stand, I know where he stands. If religion comes up in conversation, that's fine, but I don't "preach" to him. Firstly, to preach would destroy our middle ground. Second, he wouldn't listen, and it might even make him more hostile towards Christianity. As it is, he knows what I believe and maybe someday he'll want that as well, but if I were to outright tell him about God, I would loose the respect I have with him.

As far as the Golden Rule, I try to apply it through the lense of Christ. He let people know where He stood, but he did not force them to listen, and He certainly didn't force people to believe. He was just there, living and letting that in and of itself draw people to Him.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 4:25:13 PM PDT
Sure, that is why in Freemasonry there is to be no talk of religion or politics. It is meant to avoid division that sectarianism can foster. But what about the command of God, the obligation, do you think that I am way off base with this?
I am referring to my above post.

Posted on Aug 15, 2009 11:53:26 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 15, 2009 11:58:21 PM PDT
Raven says:
>Aglęca said:

>Sure, that is why in Freemasonry there is to be no talk of religion or politics. It is meant to avoid division that sectarianism can foster. But what about the command of God, the obligation, do you think that I am way off base with this?
I am referring to my above post.

No, the question is not off base at all. I have often grappled with the very same question you pose: do we keep silent about our beliefs in order to keep our friends, or do we pursue the Great Commission? It is an unfortunate truth that many people are hostile toward Christianity. Among my non-Christian friends, many would rather get a root canal than hear about God. I think the thing to remember, however, is that there are many ways of "shining the light."

As you mentioned, many people don't want to be preached to, and will shut down if we try. So how then do we keep Jesus' Commission without loosing the attention and respect of the people around us? Do we simply write them off as unreachable? And if so, how do we reconcile that resignation to the fact Jesus came for ALL people? In many situations, I think we can, and sometimes should, share our faith without words. The old saying is true-actions DO speak louder than words.

When I was a kid, my parents struggled financially and would often take us to the food pantry at a local church. Though I was not a Christian then, and wouldn't become one until my teenage years, I was always impressed by the workers at that church. They toiled tirelessly for the less fortunate. Thought they never spoke a word about Jesus, I learned so much about him from these humble souls that volunteered their time and money. Their dedication and selflessness left an indelible mark on me, perhaps starting me on the journey that led to faith.

I think our lives can, in and of themselves, be a witness, serving the Great Commission. How do we live? Do we exhibit selfless service? Can people see Christ reflected in the choices we make? These are the things that people notice, rather they'll admit it or not. To this point, I think of Jesus eating with sinners. Why did they accept Him so easily? I believe it was because he expressed unconditional love, not superiority, and I think they could see the selflessness of His life. He did not try to force religion on people. Or remember the rich young man who wanted to follow Jesus? Jesus told him to sell everything he had, but the young man chose to turn back. I'm sure that broke Christ's heart, but He accepted the decision. He did not chase after the young trying to convince him of his error.

Many people who would disagree with this philosophy, saying that the only way to reach people is to constantly tell them about Jesus. Sometimes that works, most times it doesn't. Believe me, I wish I was a great preacher, like Peter or Paul, but I'm not. I, of course, make my friends aware of my faith, but I do not "preach" it to them. If I did, I would loose their respect and likely their friendship. I do, however, pray for them, pray that they'll ask questions about my faith. If they themselves ask, I would jump at the opportunity to share my beliefs.

I don't know if this makes sense. I hope it does, as it's my best attempt at putting my philosophy into words.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 15, 2009 11:59:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 15, 2009 11:59:35 PM PDT
Oh yes it does, it is everything I love of Christianity...

Posted on Aug 16, 2009 1:40:43 AM PDT
Because it is genuinely lovable. I bet that even God loves atheism more than He loves religion.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 16, 2009 4:07:13 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 16, 2009 4:15:45 PM PDT
sfon says:
Raven says: "I don't know if this makes sense. I hope it does, as it's my best attempt at putting my philosophy into words."

I also think that your post makes great sense, and I too feel that being a 'living example' is the best course for the individual Christian. However, one must still ask... when you encounter a person who exhibits selflessness, a person with profound peace of spirit, graciousness, honesty, and charity... well, what if that person is not even a Christian? What if they are a Buddhist, or of some other world view? There are countless individuals on many paths who display the qualities described. Such personal qualities may be the result of Christianity for some, but not for all others. It is the quality of character involved that is important, not the specific religion. Are our lives merely advertisements for our individual world views?

Certainly, my behavior and my life reflect on my upbringing... it says something about my parents and the way I was raised, it says something about the philosophies I have embraced. Should Buddhists, Wiccans, or Christians who admire my way seriously start to consider atheism? Or should they simply realize that all paths are worthy?

Raven says: "I do, however, pray for them, pray that they'll ask questions about my faith. If they themselves ask, I would jump at the opportunity to share my beliefs."

I do not know your friends, the ones you speak of, but I do know that not all are looking to change the path they are on, not all are looking for an organized religion, not all are looking for a supernatural construct. Many have already found meaning and purpose. Many have already found peace and fulfilment.

Posted on Aug 17, 2009 12:09:25 AM PDT
Raven says:
>sfon said:

>However, one must still ask... when you encounter a person who exhibits selflessness, a person with profound peace of spirit, graciousness, honesty, and charity... well, what if that person is not even a Christian? What if they are a Buddhist, or of some other world view? There are countless individuals on many paths who display the qualities described.
>Such personal qualities may be the result of Christianity for some, but not for all others.

For this, I would defer first to C.S. Lewis, who states that all people seem to have an inherent sense of right and wrong, or the Law of Nature, as he called it. In his book Mere Christianity, he says:

"I know that some people say this idea of the Law of Nature or decent behavior known to all men is unsound, because different civilizations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But this is not true. There have been differences between thir moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If you will take the trouble to compare the moral teachings of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks, and Romans, what will really strike you is how very like they are to each other and to our own (Christianity)."

Can non-Christians display admirable, selfless qualities? Of course they can, and they very often do. As Lewis implies, morality can, therefore, exists independent of Christianity, and can therefore be expressed by people not of the Christian faith. If, however, we were truly created in the likeness of God, as I believe, then it would only be natural to assume that we all possess those godly characteristics-kindness, selflessness, love, etc.-and some of us merely choose to cultivate said qualities more than others. I believe that most people are, at their core, good and decent. I have seen some non-Christians live more selfless lives than their Christians counterparts. That being said, the question would then be: How good is good enough? Is our idea of "good" corrupted by the sinful world in which we live?

And this line of thought-how good is good enough-leads naturally to the concept of Hell.

Do I believe that all non-Christians will go to Hell? Do I believe that the person living in some remote jungle, who has never even heard of Christ, will be condemned to Hell for not accepting Him? No, not at all! As the Bible itself says: where there is no law, there is no transgression. I realize that you are an atheist, but please allow me to share the words of Christian author Max Lucado on this topic:

"...all humanity will be judged on the day Christ comes. This stirs up a hornet's nest of dilemmas, not the least of which is: What about those who never heard of Christ? What about those who lived before the time of Christ or never heard His gospel? Will they be judged as well? Yes, but by a different standard. Men will be judged on the basis of the light they had, not on the basis of the light they never had."

Therefore, it comes down to the question of how much light a person has had in their life, and how they in turn respond to that light. For me, personally, I believe the Bible to be truth, and therefore I believe Jesus when He says, "No one comes to the Father except through me." However, a person who has never heard the Gospel will, of course, be judged by a different standard than the person who has an unread Bible sitting on a dusty bookshelf in their living room. That being said, I believe-or rather hope-there will be Buddhists, Catholics, Christians, and those of many different faiths in Heaven. It all depends, I think, on the light we have received and how we responded to it.

>It is the quality of character involved that is important, not the specific religion. Are our lives merely advertisements for our individual world views?

I would argue that most people are "merely advertisements for their individual world-views," rather intentional or not. As a Christian, however, I believe I am to imitate, to the best of my ability, the life of Christ. To, in essence, give tangibility to the light I've received. Does that mean that I try to live as an advertisement for my faith? Yes, but for the sake of being true to the light-or truth-as I've experienced it. If by living in the manner that I do it draws others to God, then all the better. I, however, still live a normal life. I work, I am married, and I have family and friends. Am I advocating denial of everything that brings joy in life and becoming a living billboard? No. I agree that it is the quality of character that is important, but as a Christian I think that the model for our character should come from Christ.

>Should Buddhists, Wiccans, or Christians who admire my way seriously start to consider atheism?

If that was what truly they wanted...

I, first of all, believe that faith accepted or rejected is a serious matter. I believe that a person considering Christianity should apply themselves to learning about the faith, establishing a firm foundation, just as I believe that a Christian thinking of leaving the faith should actively explore alternative schools of thought before abandoning their faith.

I've read about the Crusades, and I'm appalled by the events that unfolded. Forcing people to convert to a certain faith-any faith-is a horrible atrocity. God created us with free will, the power to accept or reject Him. He has never forced faith on us, and for us to do it in His name goes against the very nature of God. So, believing that we were created with free will, if a person is truly set on converting to, say, atheism, I would respect their decision, knowing that they have an inherent freedom to choice. I would, of course, continue to pray for the person, but ultimately the choice is theirs.

>I do not know your friends, the ones you speak of, but I do know that not all are looking to change the path they are on, not all are looking for an organized religion, not all are looking for a supernatural construct. Many have already found meaning and purpose. Many have already found peace and fulfillment.

I would say, as I did in my last post, that prayer plays a big part. There is only so much that I can do, the rest is up to God. I have many friends that I truly love. I don't want to believe they would be sent to Hell. So I pray that God will open their hearts. I sometimes find it hard to see how God might open their eyes to Christ, but as someone-I can't recall who-once said: How is a faithless question.

For example, I have a friend. I have known him and his wife since we were all in the third grade. He is a staunch atheist. Now his daughters have spent this summer at a camp run by a local church. A couple days ago, the church hosted an end of summer dinner for parents and friends in a nearby park. He called me up, and said, "You know this church stuff isn't my thing. I'm going because my kids want me to come. I'd really appreciate it if you came too." Of course I went. When the pastor offered an opening prayer, my friend rolled his eyes. When the pastor tried to talk to him later, my friend blew him off. He made it clear that he didn't want to be there. But, at the end of the night, when it came time to clean up, my friend was the first to offer to help, loading the chairs and tables into a box truck. I remember looking around, seeing all the people who had professed to being Christians throughout the night sitting around, unwilling to help with anything, but my friend the atheist was gladly carrying tables and helping to take down tents. He was more the servant that night than almost all the others.

I get what you're asking...and you're right, some people don't want to change the path they're on. I can't claim to know all the answers. I do, however, believe that someday we'll all stand before God. And what transpires at that moment will be between the individual and God.

I realize that I have not fully addressed all the points you touched on. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Posted on Apr 12, 2012 4:38:19 AM PDT
bump

Posted on Apr 13, 2012 6:32:40 PM PDT
MLC says:
Actually, J, it would be more accurate to say that you stand on the rock of Jesus Christ while atheists stand on the quicksand of atheism. LOL!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2012 7:58:10 PM PDT
"Actually, J, it would be more accurate to say that you stand on the rock of Jesus Christ while atheists stand on the quicksand of atheism."

As an atheist, I stand on the rock known as "reality". I understand and accept that my senses are imperfect and limited, and so must make an extra effort to verify my observations, and test my conclusions. The best tool we have for doing that is known as the scientific method. That method has helped us discover and understand more about how reality works than any other method.

Contrast this with religion, which has shown itself to be utterly unreliable when it comes to understanding how reality works, and which, as often as not, has stood *in the way* of our learning more about reality.
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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 7:15:22 AM PDT
MaryAnn H. says:
"As an atheist, I stand on the rock known as "reality""

And I, as well as a multitude of others, stand on that rock with you. I find religious belief to be unhealthy as well as unreliable. I do not believe it to be mentally healthy to pin one's hopes on an illusion and believing that an after life is filled with glory. By doing so, not appreciating the only life one will, without question, truly have.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 7:57:44 AM PDT
"Give me all the reasons why you stand on the rock of Atheism"

I can give you five to start you off.

1. It's not AD 150.
2. Science
3. Reason
4. Logic
5. I'm not a gullible moron.

Posted on Apr 14, 2012 8:25:27 AM PDT
Because aetheism gives us the rock of science and freedom, religion gives us subservience to corrupt religious leaders and magic. The church does matter ofcourse!! If only because of the horror it visits on mankind. We must be vigilant and fight the attempt of all religious people to get their way. The last time the Christian church was truly dominant it gave us the dark ages and 1,500 years of death disease and horror. Just as Islam now drags the Arab nations into the pit of corrupt leaders who are totally like the popes and evangelical leaders. Even with the little power and influence the church has today it protects child abusers, brings death to the sexually alive, fights for laws to hurt people with anything but their version of the only "morale" sexual orientation, fights science in the fight against disease, fights free thought, fights for more wars. The religious instinct is a sad accident of evolution which needs to be stamped out. The good that some religious do in spite of their faith is trumped every day by what secular efforts provide harnessing the power of the entire community through government. Religious care is always conditional never with out prejudiced strings involving kneeling to some man or woman or idol. Unite brothers and sisters, throw off your golden crucifixes, your shinning cathedrals. Is it any wonder the corporate elite that sells us bad drugs, disease promoting manufactured antibiotic filled foods, guns , polluted, planet destroying air supports the Party of God the GOP ther current victim of the intolerant relgious. The Former Grand Old Party has lost its grandeur to a cabal of fanatical thinkers. There is an important role for a truly conservative and truly liberal politics not this tryanny of the religious and monied elites.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 8:33:54 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 17, 2012 5:30:48 AM PDT
so your united 30,000 demoninations is united? Seems like no two congregations believe the same thing. even members of the same congregation. There are very few people that you would call christian that have beliefs that are similar to most Christians of 100 years ago it evoles as th secular world proves more fantasy wrong.

The political compromises with the religious fanatics to put their little slogans everywhere are pathetic plea by the the subservient rather that the bold free independance expressed in the original secualar founding documents. See Jefferesons Bible, he denied Jesus was divine, you can see his bible now at the Smithonian or on line.
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  92
Total posts:  355
Initial post:  Nov 2, 2007
Latest post:  Apr 16, 2012

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