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Customer Discussions > Religion forum

Bart Ehrman's New Book *Did Jesus Exist: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth*


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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:39:22 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:41:23 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
Received at 8:56AM on 4/20 - must be your second one. PDF on the way

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:43:03 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
MAX FLASH: Lee: The stories about Jesus' resurrection are both too early and too well attested in multiple, independent sources...

Max: What are these early sources you refer to?

LEE: Max where have you been? We've been over this like a dozen times in two separate threads in just the past three months.

a) Paul (I Cor. 15:3-7, etc.), writing by ca. AD 49

b) the gospels, the earliest written by ca. 65/70 AD

c) Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, written between ca. 90s-110s AD.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:43:53 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
Moongirl,
Your email has yet to arrive.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:46:45 PM PDT
Max Flash says:
LEE: Max where have you been? We've been over this like a dozen times in two separate threads in just the past three months.

Max: I misunderstood your misconception of the terms "early" and "independent" and thought you might actually have something this time.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:47:55 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
The story of the Romans handing Jesus' body over to Joseph of Arimathea would not be an embarrassment to the early church. The embarrassment would lie in leaving the body on the cross to rot away, quite appropriate for a revolutionary, but a real hitch in the tomb/resurrection narrative.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:48:26 PM PDT
Max Flash says:
Lee: For a very scholarly, detailed study see Boyd's and Eddy's *The Jesus Legend.* They discuss at some length how oral tradition actually worked in the ancient world.

Max: I'll point this out yet once again, they discuss how it _might_ have worked.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:49:20 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
LEE: A mere 3-5 years isn't enough time for a legend to take hold.

M_S: You keep repeating this canard. I take it you never check Snopes.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:51:52 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
No!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:52:36 PM PDT
Me -- A Gnostic wrote about Gnosticism...
SK -- Jeremy, you cannot say that when you haven't bothered to read the book.

Well, yes I can:
http://www.amazon.com/Elaine-Pagels/e/B000AP9OSY/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_0

There is no shame in admitting a theological bias, especially when one exists.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:57:31 PM PDT
Dr H says:
------J
esus' birth was ca. 4 BC, and his death either 30 (more likely) or 33 AD. His death didn't "get changed to coincide with the pagan Winter Solstice ceremonies,"
======
Correct. It was his -birth- date that got changed to coincide with whe winter solstice ceremonies, not his death date.

His death date was changed to coincide with the spring celebration of the fertility goddess Eostre.

------
the "pagan Winter Solstice ceremonies" got changed (by 2nd century Emperor Aurelian) to coincide with the date Christians celebrated as his birthday (Dec. 25). The original pagan solstices had been celebrated in August.
======
Eh? August is the month before the atumnal equinox -- it's two months in after the nearest solstice (summer), and four months away from the winter solstice, even on the old Julian Calendar. No pagans would have been celebrating a solstice in August. An equinox, perhaps, although even for that they would have been early.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:59:03 PM PDT
Got it in good condition. I'll try again to comprehend it.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:59:46 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
MENS_SANA: The story of the Romans handing Jesus' body over to Joseph of Arimathea would not be an embarrassment to the early church. The embarrassment would lie in leaving the body on the cross to rot away, quite appropriate for a revolutionary, but a real hitch in the tomb/resurrection narrative.

LEE: I disagree. The gospels do not portray Jesus' family as at all favorable to his ministry in the gospels. In one account they basically tell him he's out of his mind; then they portray Jesus' family as absent (all but his mother) at his trial and execution, so that he had to be buried in a tomb borrowed from a member of the council who had caused his execution. That would be terribly embarrassing to them. Because Jesus' family either was unable or unwilling (or both) to bury him, as a proper Jewish family would their dead.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:01:12 PM PDT
MS -- you will find his article on the Synoptic Problem/Q in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary.

I do not have that book. Can you sum up his position?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:01:13 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
MENS_SANA: LEE: A mere 3-5 years isn't enough time for a legend to take hold.

M_S: You keep repeating this canard. I take it you never check Snopes.

LEE: Snopes is irrelevant. We're talking about ancient oral tradition. Five years isn't enough time for that type of legend to evolve in an ancient oral culture.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:05:00 PM PDT
Woah...

that is all.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:07:18 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 3:12:44 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
Well, I HAVE read Pagels, and Elaine Pagels is most definitely a cheerleader for the ancient Gnostics, despite her attempts at scholarly disinterest. It's pretty obvious (or should be) to anyone who reads her work with an open mind that she doesn't much like the (to her) dogmatic, intolerant, judgmental, orthodox bishops and church fathers, and regrets that the (to her) more tolerant, non-dogmatic, user-friendly, inclusive, Gnostics did not come out on top. She apparently sees Gnosticism as the softer, gentler Christianity that might have been. She seems to ignore the established fact that most ancient Gnostic sects were just as, if not even more, close-minded, exclusivist, judgmental, dogmatic and anti-Jewish as orthodox Christianity.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:08:40 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
DR. H.: His death date was changed to coincide with the spring celebration of the fertility goddess Eostre.

LEE: Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:11:11 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
MAX: I'll point this out yet once again, they discuss how it _might_ have worked.

LEE: Noooo, they discuss how it PROBABLY worked.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:15:30 PM PDT
Max Flash says:
LEE: Noooo, they discuss how it PROBABLY worked.

Max: Even if you are right, this proves that you can't know with certainty what actually happened, in fact it is impossible to know.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:24:25 PM PDT
q -- Nicodemus...

Ah, yes. Thank you.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:25:57 PM PDT
Dr. H -- some legends have taken hold in hours...

"legends" is an awfully strong word, D. What, exactly, do you mean when you say that?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:27:06 PM PDT
K. Cooper says:
Lee

I like your comments and you have good knowledge coupled with a strong faith. Don't let the no voters get you down.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:31:26 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
You did not refute my suggestion. You did not even come near it in your alleged disagreement.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:32:30 PM PDT
K. Cooper says:
Lee

I have heard that the first Christmas and the first Easter might have been at about the same time of year and that dates were changed so that each holiday couldhave their own season and devotion.
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  115
Total posts:  4729
Initial post:  Apr 10, 2012
Latest post:  May 1, 2014

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