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Bart Ehrman's New Book *Did Jesus Exist: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth*


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Showing 3826-3850 of 1000 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:08:53 PM PDT
Sarah says:
LEE: This is a ridiculous notion. Pius XI stated to a group of Belgian pilgrims "We are all (Jews and Catholics) spiritual Semites." The Vatican wanted Jews to convert, not made extinct.

S Well, no. They were very particular about not converting Jews in those years, because they did not want insincere converts who were converting only to save their lives. They regularly refused to issue baptismal certificates that would have saved Jewish lives. They were more interested in excluding Jews from the conversion process, because their sincerity could not be regarded as trustworthy, in the circumstances.

Try again, Lee. Perhaps you can do better.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:09:22 PM PDT
Sarah says:
lee....You might also point the finger at the rest of the world. Where were Great Britain, the US, Canada and other nations of the world while all of this was going on?

S You are right on this point.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:10:10 PM PDT
Sarah says:
Dalin? I think not.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:10:57 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
Yes, this is an example of where the RCC could have helped, caring more about preservng Jewish lifes than having sincere converts.

Too bad it did not happen.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:13:05 PM PDT
Sarah says:
>S You obviously did not write this, but neither do you credit the true author. I doubt you even understand it, since it exposes a lack of integrity on the part of early Christian authorities and supports Celsus' critiques of Christianity.

>JLS: In other words, What does say, "It is clear to me that the writings of the christians" What? You mean to tell me that Matt, Mark, Luke, and John had been wrote down. So, like I tried to tell you, Maybe

>S You're babbling again and totally incoherent. Where's the Martian / English translator?

JLS: Put a rope around her neck, She is done for. You last words is this. Sarah, it over with. Matt, Mark, Luke, and John had to wrote down before 175. Go ahead, Put your money with your month. Let see if it as you said, "You're babbling again and totally incoherent" I call Evdience, I am total changing you with unethical behavior now.

S You issue a death threat and then whine that you are "changing" me with unethical behavior?

Is the "learning disability" some kind of schizophrenia?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:13:07 PM PDT
J. Green says:
Sarah says:
lee....You might also point the finger at the rest of the world. Where were Great Britain, the US, Canada and other nations of the world while all of this was going on?

S You are right on this point.
---------------------------------
That was Lee's point.
My point was they were all "christian' nations at the time

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:14:19 PM PDT
J. Green says:
sarah.....Try again, Lee. Perhaps you can do better.
--------------------------NOT!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:21:36 PM PDT
Sarah says:
I know it was Lee. It's not my fault you use unconventional orthography to indicate who is writing.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:46:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 4:54:22 PM PDT
I read the article excerpt. I was so shocked! A Catholic source excusing other Catholics! We've been over this before. I find your sources biased, you find my sources biased. But I found this interesting:

"This is, I believe, a compelling argument that cannot be ignored. It is one, moreover, that is supported by the testimony of Jewish Holocaust survivors, such as Marcus Melchior, the former Chief Rabbi of Denmark, who attests that "if the Pope had spoken out, Hitler would probably have massacred more than six million Jews and perhaps ten times ten million Catholics, if he had the power to do so." . . .

This opinion cannot be supported; it's conjecture only and you are treating it as though it were a proven fact. Consider the words of Jesus: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) The physical and moral cowardice of the World War II era Catholics simply cannot be excused and cannot be explained away.

As my husband told me after the Aurora, CO shooting, "I'd rather take a bullet in the chest than one in the back." He is willing to die for me and our children, but he would want to die fighting instead of meekly submitting. With all the money and resources at the disposal of the Vatican, it is simply inexcusable that the best a Catholic apologist can muster is a feeble mention of a few spoken condemnations of Nazism.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:47:47 PM PDT
I have Joe on ignore, so I missed that. Joe is threatening you, Sarah. I hope you reported him.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:48:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 4:48:47 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
Rachel, read it again. Dalin is a Jewish Rabbi, not a Catholic. Thus it isn't a Catholic excusing other Catholics but a JEW defending a Catholic.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 4:51:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 4:52:34 PM PDT
I apologize for my lack of precision. I was actually referring to the source: http://catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0020.html

I do note that you were unable to refute any other points other than my lack of precision in delineating what "Catholics excusing other Catholics" meant.

Posted on Jul 30, 2012 4:54:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 5:14:01 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
RACHEL: This opinion cannot be supported; it's conjecture only and you are treating it as though it were a proven fact.

LEE: First of all, I'M not, RABBI DALIN is. Secondly, he isn't treating it as a "fact," but as the express opinion of a wartime Danish rabbi in a much better position to judge the possible outcome of Pius' condemnation of Hitler than a modern skeptic with an axe to grind against Pius and the Catholic Church. Or do you think Rabbi Melchior was exaggerating?

RACHEL: Consider the words of Jesus: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) The physical and moral cowardice of the World War II era Catholics simply cannot be excused and cannot be explained away.

LEE: Says the modern skeptic with an axe to grind against Pius and the Catholic Church who has no idea what she's talking about. Dozens of books have been written about the heroism of wartime Catholics in Europe on behalf of Jews. I can recommend some good ones. Sr. Margharitta Marchione's *Yours is a Precious Witness* is a good one to start with.

Rychlak's *Hitler, the War and the Pope* is also good, as is Peter Godman's *Hitler and the Vatican: Inside the Secret Archives That Reveal the New Story of the Nazis and the Church.*

There a dozen good scholarly books that examine Pius XII and his actions on behalf of Jews during the Holocaust. If you actually had the intellectual integrity you claim to, you'd read a couple before you pontificate (pun intended) to the rest of us about how horrid Pius was towards Jews. Not that you do, but if you wanted my respect you'd study the issue carefully before lecturing about it. But I guess skeptics don't need to study an issue because their omnipotence gives them the ability to know beforehand without doing any serious study.

As for Rabbi Dalin, his work is sourced. You can look up his references. But you won't because you've already condemned Pius XII.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 5:04:51 PM PDT
J. Green says:
Sarah says:
I know it was Lee. It's not my fault you use unconventional orthography to indicate who is writing.
---------------------
I did not know there were rules

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 5:08:07 PM PDT
LF: First of all, I'M not, RABBI DALIN is.

RRR: How disingenuous! Did you or did you not cite that article as supporting your viewpoint?

LF: Says the modern skeptic with an axe to grind against Pius and the Catholic Church who has no idea what she's talking about. Dozens of books have been written about the heroism of wartime Catholics in Europe on behalf of Jews. I can recommend some good ones. Sr. Margharitta Marchione's *Yours is a Precious Witness* is a good one to start with.

RRR: Irrelevant. Your accusation of my anti-Pius bias is dismissed on the lack of evidence. I AM interested in the truth. Your citation of a single book is interesting, but again irrelevant. No one ever said that NO Catholics ever risked their lives for the sake of the oppressed Jews. I am saying that Pius took virtually no action. A few speeches ring hollow: words are cheap; actions are what truly counts. I actually DO know what I am talking about. I am not interested in explaining away the inactivity by the Vatican. I am more interested in learning why that happened. The only conceivable conclusion shows that Pius ignored Jesus' own words and failed to risk himself and the riches of the Vatican to save those bound for the extermination camps.

Posted on Jul 30, 2012 5:21:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 5:31:38 PM PDT
Lee Freeman says:
RACHEL: Irrelevant. Your accusation of my anti-Pius bias is dismissed on the lack of evidence. I AM interested in the truth. Your citation of a single book is interesting, but again irrelevant. No one ever said that NO Catholics ever risked their lives for the sake of the oppressed Jews. I am saying that Pius took virtually no action. A few speeches ring hollow: words are cheap; actions are what truly counts.

LEE: Apparently Jewish historians such as the great Pinchas Lapide disagree with you. In his monumental *Three Popes and the Jews* he says that Pius was responsible for saving the lives of some 700,000 (his original, more conservative estimate) Jews in Europe. So apparently he took enough action that these 700,000 Jews were saved. Or is 700,000 not enough?

You want Pius to have physically laid down in front of a Panzer, thus dying to save Jews. But what good would that have accomplished?

You should talk to my friend Dr. Adler, a Jewish professor. His father was one of thousands of Jews hidden on Pius' orders in Castel Gandolfo.

RACHEL:I actually DO know what I am talking about.

LEE: No you don't. You want the issue to be black and white. It isn't. You don't understand the intricacy of the Vatican apparatus itself (because you apparently think that the Vatican was a unified organization whose members all thought alike), less still the intricacies of actual war-time diplomacy. You ought to walk in Pius' shoes before you condemn him. Damed by Hitler and the Nazis with the very real possibility, not only of kidnapping and death, but even greater reprisals against Jews and Catholics if you speak out and try to save Jews, damned by posterity as a "silent Pope," if you don't, or at least if you don't as forcefully as skeptics trying to Monday morning quarterback your papacy think you should have.

RACHEL: I am not interested in explaining away the inactivity by the Vatican. I am more interested in learning why that happened. The only conceivable conclusion shows that Pius ignored Jesus' own words and failed to risk himself and the riches of the Vatican to save those bound for the extermination camps.

LEE: What is obvious is that you are interested in proving Pius guilty. Are you as dedicated to proving FDR and Churchill guilty? They did even less than Pius to speak out publicly against the Holocaust, yet I don't see skeptics vilifying them.

Pax.

Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 5:53:22 PM PDT
J. Green says:
LEE: What is obvious is that you are interested in proving Pius guilty.
----------------------------------------
What about Pius' "Rat Lines"

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 5:54:25 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
Okay, let's have a snark contest, Lee.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:15:50 PM PDT
J. Green says:
lee...

I am a Christian and a Democrat, that's all.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/f/franklin_d_roosevelt.html#P4gcgWKIH2gSlsYS.99

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:27:25 PM PDT
LF: Apparently Jewish historians such as the great Pinchas Lapide disagree with you. In his monumental *Three Popes and the Jews* he says that Pius was responsible for saving the lives of some 700,000 (his original, more conservative estimate) Jews in Europe. So apparently he took enough action that these 700,000 Jews were saved. Or is 700,000 not enough?

RRR: And Pius is supposed to have accomplished this with a handful of speeches?

LF: You want the issue to be black and white. It isn't. You don't understand the intricacy of the Vatican apparatus itself (because you apparently think that the Vatican was a unified organization whose members all thought alike), less still the intricacies of actual war-time diplomacy. You ought to walk in Pius' shoes before you condemn him. Damed by Hitler and the Nazis with the very real possibility, not only of kidnapping and death, but even greater reprisals against Jews and Catholics if you speak out and try to save Jews, damned by posterity as a "silent Pope," if you don't, or at least if you don't as forcefully as skeptics trying to Monday morning quarterback your papacy think you should have.

RRR: Good grief! The Vatican IS a unified organization and Pius was its head. There is a saying about extraordinary men (and women) rising to the occasion in extraordinary times. Unfortunately for the RCC and its legacy, Pius was all too ordinary.

LF: What is obvious is that you are interested in proving Pius guilty. Are you as dedicated to proving FDR and Churchill guilty? They did even less than Pius to speak out publicly against the Holocaust, yet I don't see skeptics vilifying them.

RRR: It's a false dichotomy at best. Churchill had his hands full with the Blitz and FDR mobilized an entire nation and its resources against the Axis. I thought you were a historian. FDR did less than Pius? Let's see: FDR committing the American war machine, including daylight bombing and participation in the greatest land invasion in history versus a few speeches? I see your point. That Pius was a real hero.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:37:44 PM PDT
In the battle between the supporters of the RCC and its critics regarding Hitler. What ever happened to the power of the holy spirit and the answering of prayers. Its took 12 long years from the rise of Hitler to his fall. And what brought him down? His ambition it stretching too far and the might to the USA and that might came from a lot of things none of which could be described as Christianity,

comments please

Posted on Jul 30, 2012 6:52:09 PM PDT
The Pope is supposed to have some sort of link to god his main man on earth its sad to see how little he is able to actually do the same of course the patriarch of the Orthodox againts Stalin and Billy Graham and the Protestant leadership all praying as hard as they can and getting their flocks to pray and still no measurable affect. Sure some hospitals but given people want hospitals anyway they give it through their churches or Synagogues or mosques of charities of taxation if you give it via your religion you get tax deducations community recognition and more jewels in your crown in heaven.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 7:01:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 7:01:45 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
Lawrence, I do think the Catholic hospitals I saw in Zaire did get community recognition, but no tax deductions. Neither did their schools.

The same is true of the Protestant hospitals and schools in Zaire.

And while you may criticize the churches, it is hard for anyone to criticize the monks, nuns, and other missionaries who work in such places.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

Posted on Jul 30, 2012 7:51:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 7:54:40 PM PDT
OH Im sure i dont mean to be mean spirited although come to think of it my relatives who are missionairies are paid for by the missions that offer the deducations here. I know lots of believers would give with out the tax deduction. Good hearted people everywhere would give to help regardless. What is a bit sad is often in the past it was the son who would not inherit or the daughter with out a husband and then they end up abroad with out family support a very tough life. And there was and is good done.
Mandela studied at mission schools. NOthing is ever black and white

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 31, 2012 3:00:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 31, 2012 3:01:56 AM PDT
James Joyce says:
Where is the statement of ideological incompatibility? The Decree against Communism concerned ideological incompatibilities, and it was these that necessitated excommunication. Insofar as it concerned the actions of Communism, it highlighted areas of ideological incompatibility, such as Communism taking women out of the home (where, the Church believed, they belonged).

Lapide ain't 'great'. His book is a collection of misattributions, statements for which he was the only witness, and multiple other assertions that are completely unsourced. Holocaust historian Susan Zuccotti characterized him as "consistently erroneous": his apologia for Pius XII was diplomatically driven - his mission, as Israeli Consul to Milan, was to win Vatican recognition of Israel.

Lapide arrived at his figure of 'Jews saved by the Church' by the extraordinary method of taking an estimate of the number of surviving European Jews and subtracting figures for those saved by other organisations. It is, afaik, completely undocumented. And Lapide's assertion does not constitute documentation.
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