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Shroud of Turin: For the doubting Thomases?

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In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 3:55:35 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 22, 2012 3:57:54 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 3:59:08 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
Angel, do you know anything about the first 500 years of Christianity? The Church fathers and clergy wrote volumes and volumes about Jesus and church doctrine. Where do you come by the assertion that everything about Jesus was "stricken from the record"? There was a prodigious amount of writing within the church. Not much if anything outside the church. The church was very careful to preserve its writings and it destroyed anything that didn't conform to what eventually became orthodox doctrine, except for various gospels and other writings that were hidden away, such as the Nag Hammadi Library

***Oh, yes I am definitely aware the Church has volumes, recording the life of Jesus, since the biblical times. Yet, when one considers a portion of the text was Gnostic and the Church had the desire to present a Patriarchal viewpoint, much of the Gnostic text was excluded.

The Nag Hammadi library, in fact, is proof Gnosticism was present and these beliefs practiced during biblical times. Even a few of the disciples were Gnostics. (Philip, Mary Magdalene, Judas, etc.).

If one was to consider sacred text was either included or excluded from the Canon, determined solely by "The Council of Nicaea" in AD/CE 325.

And during the years AD/CE 393-397, "The Councli of Hippo" made formal the New Testament. This version was ultimately finalized at The Council of Carthage.

I do not believe the Church had all scriptural documents concerning Jesus; since fragments of the Gospel of John, referred to as the Rylands Papyrus, were found in Egypt in AD/CD 125 and the Chester Beaty Papyrus (oldest fragment of Paul's letters) was also found in Egypt AD/CE 200. Obviously followers of Christ saved some sacred scriptures, whether Gnostic or Canonical. The Church may also have Gospels,not included in the Canon.
Yet, where are all the writings of the Scribes? Jesus was Jewish and aside from Josephus, there are little other Jewish writings?

The Jews recorded everything; judging from the begats, begots of the Old Testament.

So, where are the Jewish records of Jesus' existence on earth? This appears to be beyond the Laws of Probability.

Obviously, Jesus was not considered the Messiah by the Jews, and anything reflecting His preaching or His miracles would have been stricken from the record.

The Jews of the time did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor do they even believe it now. Some Rabbis; however, are becoming Messianic Rabbis.

I believe there is quite a bit that has not been revealed concerning Jesus.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:04:15 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
Being jolted with excessive electricity, as in electrocution, hurts like hell, Angel (pun intended). Do you think that's somehow not "torture"?

***Since no one is incorruptible in God's eyes, for no man is righteous.
All men will undergo a refining process, before they are able to even stand before God. Those who have committed fewer sins and have confessed and repented will still be refined, but the length of time will not be as long as those who have not confessed and repented. God is wants to save as many souls as possible. Those who are beyond being saved will still be refined, but their souls instead would be placed in a more righteous body and thrown back to earth for a second chance.

Everyone will be refined, for all men are corrupt in the eyes of the Lord.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:07:34 PM PDT
jpl says:
Shroud of Turin: For the doubting Thomases?

MJO says: This may take homework. I recently saw an objective documentary on the Shroud produced by the Discovery Channel in which it was extensively examined by numerous scientists, including a group from NASA & Israeli scientists. Many findings were significant including spores & limestone on the Shroud are only found in Israel; how the image was not made is still unknown; it is too superficial to be ink; blood flow matches gravity; in the image can be seen the maxillary bones of the face and the carpal bones of the wrist-some physicist speculate the release of radiation as matter became pure energy? ?Resurrection; damage to the median nerve in the wrist with crucifixion causes the thumbs to flex inward as is found on the image; the scourging images on the back match those of instruments used by the Romans at the time; coins placed on the eyes are those from the Roman empire; the C14 dating to the middle ages of the cloth may have been inadvertently, or worse intentionally taken from cloth used to repair the Shroud after a fire during the 1400s. It is definitely worth a look because, as I said, it is an analysis by secular scientists.

jpl: No, you didn't see an objective presentation on the shroud of Turin on the Discovery channel.

Unfortunately, the Discovery Channel can't exist without catering to melodramataic misinterpretations and pseudoscience. If the channel resorted only to scientific fact, it would go out of business.

For these "objective" Discovery programs you watch, MJO, you see about 1 minute in 6 from scientists. The other 5/6ths of the program is dedicated to the gullible masses who don't know how many times the shroud of Turin has been debunked by rigid scientific standards, as have UFOs and any number of incredulous presentations that invite audiences to watch through the next commercial.

Remember, the commercials drive what's presented and how it's presented.

By the way, for all you UFOers out there, UFO doesn't stand for ALIENS; it stands for Unidentified Flying Objects. Do you think the Air Force is going to acknowledge top secret information just because people saw something they didn't understand?

Gimme a break!

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:09:10 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
I meant to say "thanks" for the reference. Sorry for the typo!

***You don't have to thank me, I make enough mistakes to cover everyone on this post. Oftentimes, I look back on my posts and change errors, but sometimes I think, "Oh, I didn't mean it that way, but it's too late to change."

Doesn't matter! In my heart of hearts I know what I mean, but do not express it correctly sometimes.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:10:13 PM PDT
brunumb says:
Angel: "Those who are beyond being saved will still be refined, but their souls instead would be placed in a more righteous body and thrown back to earth for a second chance."

What on earth is "a more righteous body"? If the soul is 'you', then how is sticking it in another body and chucking it back to earth going to make any difference? And can you be more specific about the 'refining' process please.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:24:04 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
Angel, where did you get the idea that Jews of the period wrote everything down? You are once again arguing from incredulity.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:25:34 PM PDT
Angel says:
Bubba says:
In my case, it is quite like to be allergic rhinitis, one of my house mates also has rhinitis.

***Drugs are powerful and must be metabolized by the body, either through the liver, kidneys or more rarely, the lungs.

And sometimes the metabolites are more toxic to the body than the original drug. Neuromuscular blockers, such as Tubocurare; the poison dipped on the arrowheads the Indians used to fell small game (asphyxiation), is an example. Laudanosine is its toxic metabolite.

You should always read the package insert, then google "Drug Pharmacology" and look for the Ames Test on that drug.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:26:29 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
So you believe in purgatory? It's still torture.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 4:50:44 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
SK, I will give Angel this, at least her view of hell is temporary, a whole lot better than the permanent torture most Christians believe in, and much better than the quote we saw, of the person who seemed to relish peole being tortured eternally.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 5:47:11 PM PDT
Bubba says:
I have a medical, including pharmacology, background. I know the pharmacology of the meds I take, I also only take meds that I have an actual need to take.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 5:59:34 PM PDT
Angel says:
Bubba says,

In the same study about a third of patients on Lyrica had a 30% or better improvement in pain. Around 25% of placebo patients had a 30% or better improvement in pain. So Lyrica is a bit better than placebo.

***Wonder what the percentage is for herbal medicines?


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 6:11:18 PM PDT
Angel says:
Lugh says:
Angel says: "My belief is God will purify the souls that have gone against his will with "tongues of fire." The tongues of fire do not burn as the fire in a furnace does, but instead, as the heat of electricity burns, similar to electrocution."

Just when I think you cannot get further away from reality, you surpass yourself. At death, we lose our bodies, what remains is our mind/soul/spirit. How can you electrocute something that is immaterial and intangible? Have you considered any research done into the Afterlife? The Roman Catholic Church is at the forefront, it knows what you say is ridiculous.

*** The soul not only feels pain, but the soul, upon separation from the body, holds a record or log of everything you have done in life. This log is revealed after death and determines the judgment.

As far as not having a body, Jesus had a body after the resurrection.
He told Thomas to place his fingers in His wounds. Jesus not only had flesh and bones, but He ate broiled fish with the disciples.

How was He able to do that?

Everyone will be refined. Only by being refined is one able to become incorruptible.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 6:19:56 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 22, 2012 8:51:10 PM PDT
Angel says:
Gwaithmir says:
Angel said: "What was revealed to me was the Shroud's facial image was the real face of Jesus, and the link between between science and creation was identical to that detailed in Einstein's formula."

>Right! Just like the claim by a woman several years ago that Jesus' face was revealed to her in a fried tortilla.

***No, nothing like those types of revelations. All the revelations I have had have come true, thus far.

And those images posted on the internet are not those of the real Jesus. A true image of Jesus would look exactly like that of the shroud, as seen in the spinning neutron star taken by the Chandra telescope (B1509). Look at this image on google images and place it against a facial image of the Shroud. You can clearly see the likeness, especially from the nose up. The lips and nose are exact.

I am not able to see this distinctly, but a friend mentioned to me the hand covering His face even shows the blood flow from the nail wound.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 6:45:14 PM PDT
Angel says:
Lugh says:
Angel tells us that when common sense fails, there was evidence but it was stricken from the records. Have you an explanation of how the 'archaeological' evidence of Moses was dug up and buried elsewhere?

***Just to let you know I answered half of your post and was disconnected. Our electricity was out for two hours. Just came on again.

No, no evidence on Moses. My point was the Church as evidence of Jesus, both Gnostic and Canonical. The Nag Hammadi Library unearthed in Egypt is extremely detailed on the life of Jesus, but there is little mention in Hebrew scripture, other than Josephus and maybe one or two other lesser characters.

The Jewish scribes were very specific and elaborate in their writings concerning not only Jewish genealogy, but their contributions, as well.

According to Jewish laws, Jesus was not recognized as the Messiah, yet He should have been mentioned if only for His many miracles.

The Scribes would have certainly written about Him, but if they didn't believe He was Christ, and instead just another false prophet, He would have been excluded from their writings. This appears to be the case. Even Josephus does not elaborate on the miracles Jesus performed on earth.

Were you aware a 6th Century vase was unearthed in Syria with Christ's image . See the Emessa vase.

Among the earliest representations of the Shroud is on a 6th century silver vase, from Homs (ancient Emessa) in Syria.

You can view it on the Shroud of Turin blogspot or there is a small picture of it under google images, Emessa Vase.

Lugh says:
Where could you put all the rubble and rubbish from two million refugees? The only evidence in the area he supposedly travelled dates from a much later time. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its

***The only evidence has been removed. Historical evidence of Jesus has been either buried or destroyed.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 6:50:24 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
I'm sorry, but I don't really know what reduces their pain. I just know it can be severe.

***Thank you.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 6:56:34 PM PDT
Angel says:
blueskies says:
Hey, you gotta give the artists credit who did these things. That took some talent. OK, maybe it was not on the up and up,but still...I always thought the medieval times were sort of Dark Age-y, as opposed to New Age-y, but they were alive and kicking when it came to artistic ingenuity.

***Yes, they were good, but what few realize about the Shroud is His positive image (our negative in a picture) is on the inside of the shroud.
So, to see His image you must take a picture of it, as Secondo Pia did originally, when he first photographed the Shroud.

Even though Medieval artists were good it would have been very difficult to paint a reverse image.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 7:12:53 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
I must googled the image. It does look, remarkably, like a 4-fingered hand holding up a crown. It does NOT look like the face of Jesus on the Shroud or any face, Jesus or otherwise.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 7:28:42 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
As far as I'm concerned I've yet to read about a "miracle" that couldn't be explained with a natural explanation or which wasn't, frankly, made up out of whole cloth.

And sure, if There was some real evidence of God, irrefutable evidence that couldn't be explained by natural phenomenon, I'd be open to it. But as the child of Holocaust survivors I'm pretty well convinced that no god worth worshipping would have been capable of allowing that and all the other genocides that have occurred in this world to happen. It is simply logical to me that no such god could exist.

***And while that is the most horrific crime known to man, we do not know God's reasoning. Innocent babies and animals are taken every day. Yet, things are done for the Glory of God.

We think like men, not like God. Those that were taken may have been chosen to show God's glory on His return, just as Lazarus was raised from the dead to show God's glory here on earth.

Some say the Prophet Ezekiel prophesied about the Holocaust, but you must remember always, Israel is the apple of God's eye. He will not only protect it, but will also save His elect.

Ezekiel 37: 11-14

"Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves. O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord."


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 7:40:56 PM PDT
Angel says:
S. Kessler says:
So what happened to this cloth between the 6th and 14th centuries when it resurfaced? Why did no one at the time claim it to be the Edessa cloth?

***I believe when the cloth was first found, after the resurrection, according to Ian Wilson's original Shroud book, it was against Jewish law to look directly at a naked body. So, the Shroud was folded, so that only the face was exposed, and this was placed in a picture frame and hidden in the stone wall. When it was eventually found, and the backing removed, it was realized this cloth was the entire body of Jesus, and not just the facial image. The Shroud and the Edessa cloth are one and the same.

I further do not believe the Edessa cloth was the cloth given to King Agbar for his illness, because why would Jesus need to give the King a replica of His front and back to cure him? Jesus could have cured the King by word alone, as was done for the Roman soldier, who stated his servant was ill.

Jesus stated, something to the effect, you're servant has been cured. And the Roman found his servant was, indeed, cured the same hour as Jesus had declared it would be so.

With that in mind, my thoughts are the Edessa cloth was the Shroud, but had been hidden in the stone wall since Jesus' resurrection.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 7:48:58 PM PDT
Angel says:
Rachel Rebecca Riordan says:
Hmmm. For the literal minded among us, the hypothesis was Tam's about the amazing levitating, spinning corpse of Jesus, which spun with such force that Jesus' Holy Skull spun right off His Holy C1 vertebra.

***Rachel, I did state His body may have spun rapidly or slowly. In actuality it may have been only once that He had to turn to produce the image.

When you go to the beach and lay on your back, you get a sunburn on your front. You then turn over (180 degrees) and receive a burn on your back. Depending on how long you lie on each side, results in the amount of sunburn you get.

You may lie on your side for 5 minutes, for 1 hour or for 7 hours. You determine how much of a burn you receive.

Jesus, while levitating between the two pieces of cloth in an Event Horizon, as proposed by Dr. Isabel Piczek, may have given off light to produce the image on the back of the cloth, then turned 180 degrees and light then produced the image on the front of the cloth.

A two-step reaction would not penetrate through the entire cloth.

The levitating, was done just as the Yogi levitated, with mind control.

OK, I agreed the neutron star was out, but He may have rotated only once, or at a slower rate.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 7:53:43 PM PDT
Angel says:
RRR: I guess those memory issues are still wreaking havoc with you. You and Tam keep telling us that the image on the cloth must be a miracle since science supposedly can't explain it. "Supernatural" explanations have always been debunked as misunderstood natural occurrences.

***No, Rach, I never said it was a miracle. That was some other poster.

If Jesus was able to raise Lazarus from the dead, cure the blind man, cure the Roman's servant by word alone, raise the little girl, believe her name was Tabitha, from the dead, turning once in a levitated state, opening the stone in front of the tomb, and putting the guards in a comatose state, would not be difficult for Him at all.

I wouldn't call this a miracle, but would call it the work of God.


Posted on May 22, 2012 8:13:00 PM PDT
Angel says:
brunumb says:
I know, Rachel. All those discussions about taking the Bible 'literally' or 'metaphorically' etc., not to mention Angel's fantasmagorical explanations of the shroud's formation have simply addled my brain. Coming back to this thread is a bit like the morbid attraction that has you gawking at a train wreck.

***Nah! That's not the reason you come back, Dr. Kingsfield.

You come back, because you know what I speak is truth and if, in fact, Jesus is God, you would have to leaf through the Old Testament, where God told Abraham Sarah was to have a son.

Sarah laughed! God then asked her why she laughed, and she actually lied to God and said, "I didn't laugh." Yet, God sees and knows everything and He stated to Sarah (my favorite line), "Nay, but you did laugh."

In short, if God was able to do so simple a thing, He certainly is able to do something a little more complicated, like placing His image on the front and back of a cloth. A record of the crucifixion for all mankind to see and to know, Jesus is God.

And as God stated to Sarah, in Genesis 18:14, "Is there anything too hard for the Lord?"

That's why you came back, brunumb.


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 8:21:05 PM PDT
Angel says:
brunumb says:
Angel: "Those who are beyond being saved will still be refined, but their souls instead would be placed in a more righteous body and thrown back to earth for a second chance."

What on earth is "a more righteous body"? If the soul is 'you', then how is sticking it in another body and chucking it back to earth going to make any difference? And can you be more specific about the 'refining' process please.

***The soul is first refined, like silver is refined, and it becomes free of corruption. Memory is wiped clean, (equivalent to drinking the cup of forgetfulness). The soul is then placed in a more righteous body and placed back on earth. Therefore, those who were unable to find God the first time around, will have a second chance to find Him.

Since I have no plans to return to earth a second time, I intend to find Him this time around. :)


In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 8:27:22 PM PDT
It would be safer for you to bet on a large number of return trips.
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