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Mark 16:9


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Showing 26-50 of 57 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2011 5:53:02 AM PDT
Irish Lace says:
Perfect example of "angels on the head of a pin" thinking.

Who cares? And why?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2011 11:22:25 AM PDT
Isaiah says:
Truth Seeker: "Verse 9 states that resurrection occurred on the first day of the week. According to Christians that is Sunday. According to Jews that is Saturday."

rstrats: I'm not aware of anyone that refers to the first day of the week as Saturday.

S TS found some Jews who think Saturday is the first day of the week? She must have sources to which you and I have no access. But I want to know where these Jews are so I can go interview them. "Friday" in Hebrew is "Sixth Day." So if the next day is the "First Day," these jews must have a six day week. Amazing.

Posted on Nov 20, 2011 5:44:48 PM PST
rstrats says:
Anybody?

Posted on Jun 9, 2012 5:03:42 AM PDT
rstrats says:
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of an author.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 9, 2012 5:17:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 9, 2012 5:19:14 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
rstrats wrote in the OP:

-----------------------------------
I then suggested that whenever the discussion of seventh day observance versus first day observance comes up, first day proponents usually use the idea of a first day resurrection to justify the change, and when questioned about the day of resurrection, quote Mark 16:9. The poster came back with: "Quote a published author who has done that." - I have not yet been able to come up with one. Does anyone here know of one?
-----------------------------------

I don't.

But the OP for this thread helps provide the context for the OP that puzzled me on your other thread on the "Seven Day Weekly Cycle".

All the best,

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 9, 2012 5:57:12 PM PDT
Yog-Sothoth says:
TS: " According to Christians that is Sunday. According to Jews that is Saturday."

No. The Jews hold (as do everyone else) that Saturday is the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath Day.
What Christiahns did was move the OBSERVANCES of the Sabbath to the first day of the week, Sunday. It is in common useage to erroneously refer to Sunday as "the Sabbath", but in fact the correct term is "Lord's Day".

Posted on Jun 9, 2012 6:06:31 PM PDT
Yog-Sothoth says:
"Friday" in Hebrew is "Sixth Day."

"Friday" comes from the Old English Frîġed¿ġ, meaning the "day of Frigg". Frigg was a Germanic/Norse goddess equivalent to the goddess Venus/Aphrodite.

"Friday" in Hebrew is "yom shishi", meaning "sixth day", so that makes Saturday the seventh day/Sabbath/Shabat

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 9, 2012 6:37:50 PM PDT
rstrats says:
Yog-Sothoth,

re: " It is in common useage to erroneously refer to Sunday as `the Sabbath', but in fact the correct term is `Lord's Day'".

I'm not aware of any scripture that refers to the first day of the week as the "Lord's Day". What do you have in mind?

BTW, do you have any information with regard to the OP?

Posted on Jun 11, 2012 12:33:11 AM PDT
Yog-Sothoth says:
rstrats: "I'm not aware of any scripture that refers to the first day of the week as the "Lord's Day". What do you have in mind?"

The Bible does not refer to the first day of the week/Sunday as "the Lord's Day - but neither does it ever refer to it as the Sabbath either. Even in the NT, the Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Depending on the authenticity (and comma placement) of Mark 16:9, the other Gopel references to the resurrection refer only to when Jesus was first seen "as it began to dawn" (sunrise) on the first day of the week.

After the Resurrection, there are several references to the disciples/apostles "gathering together" on the first day of the week. If, in fact, Jesus was crucified on "Good Friday", the day before Passover, then Pentecost (50 days after Passover) would have fallen on Sunday: "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place". (Acts 2:1). In another verse: "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." (Acts 20:7)

Paul also tells us IT REALLT DOESN'T MATTER what day of the week we worship: "In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God." (Romans 14:5-6)

Paul also warns against JUDGING when or how others worship: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

Today, many Christian traditions believe Sunday is the Christian Sabbath day. They base this concept on verses like Mark 2:27-28 and Luke 6:5 where Jesus says he is "Lord even of the Sabbath," implying that he has the power to change the Sabbath to a different day. Christian groups that adhere to a Sunday Sabbath feel that the Lord's command was not specifically for the seventh day, but rather, one day out of the seven week days.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 3:00:53 AM PDT
James Joyce says:
Points of theology are seldom left to hang on a single verse, and I am not sure if you will find it used in isolation: those who think it refers to the resurrection rather than the appearance to Mary M occurring on the first day, tend to interpret other verses (e.g Mark 16:2) in the same way.

Matthew 28:1 does appear to contradict the 'first day' position (though no doubt there are convoluted ways around that!)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 5:26:07 AM PDT
>As the KJV translates it, it is the only place that puts the resurrection on the first day of the week.

No, it's not. Matthew 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1 all use the phrase "first day of the week" to introduce their resurrection accounts.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 9:15:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 11, 2012 9:25:51 AM PDT
James Joyce says:
The sabbath was the 7th day of the week. These verses appear to introduce Magdelene's visit rather than the actual resurrection. Given that she visits at dawn on the day after the sabbath, Matthew seems to imply that the resurrection took place the previous day (ie the sabbath/saturday).

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 10:29:55 AM PDT
rstrats says:
Michael Huggins,

re: "No, it's not. Matthew 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1..."

As James Joyce touched on, those verses do not say when the resurrection actually took place.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 12:22:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 11, 2012 12:29:22 PM PDT
James Joyce says:
Yes, they allow for the possibility (maybe Jesus rose very early..even if such an ungodly hour doesn't align with 72-hour 'prophecy'), but don't state categorically as Mark 16:9 appears to do.

Though the possibility would be sufficient for those verses to be used by Sunday people in conjunction with 16:9.

And to be honest, the Saturday people would argue that 16:9 is also ambiguous - the thing that happened on the first day of the week could have been his appearing to Magdalene rather than his 'having risen'. I think though that the natural reading is in fact 'he arose early on the first day of the week' (the same phrase occurs at Acts 13:16 - Paul didn't stand up the day before he started preaching)

Posted on Jun 11, 2012 1:08:08 PM PDT
rstrats says:
James Joyce,

re: "Though the possibility would be sufficient for those verses to be used by Sunday people in conjunction with 16:9."

But what if Mark 16:9 wasn't inspired scripture which is what the OP is essentially about?

re: "And to be honest, the Saturday people would argue that 16:9 is also ambiguous..."

I don't see how they could do that since there is no ambiguity in the KJV - "...He rose early on the first day of the week..."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 1:29:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 11, 2012 1:38:30 PM PDT
James Joyce says:
Seventh-dayers would translate it either as "having risen, <comma>, early on the first day of the week he appeared to Mary Magdalene..."; or "having risen in the morning of the first of the sabbaths". Though I wouldn't agree with either, neither is entirely outlandish. They would also argue that Matthew 28:1 clearly indicates Saturday, as he's already risen by dawn on the first day (dawn being the beginning of the day; or it could even be translated 'at dawn on the first sabbath').

I understand that there are some who argue for Friday resurrection!

It may well be the case that Mark was extended with Sunday resurrection in mind, because other references were only to post-resurrection scenarios.

Posted on Jun 17, 2012 11:15:37 AM PDT
rstrats says:
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of an author.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 18, 2012 10:06:43 PM PDT
Judaism is based on a lunar calendar. The Passover or other Jewish holy days were marked by the arrival of the new moon. The Greek gospel writers couldn't have the knowledge to synchronize the resurrection to a Sunday right up until the Papal bull of Pope Gregory, whose calendrical corrections to synchronize the celebration of Easter in proximity to vernal equinox of the Sun were an improvement on empirical decrees of Julius Caesar.

The Greeks had no uniform system, and consequently Christian Greeks hadn't an inkling that the crucifixion 'before' the Passover sundown may probably have been on a Thursday according to the gospel accounts, a Thursday which would have been a special Sh-abbot marked by the Lunar cycle instead of the conventional sixth day-evening observance we're attempting to read into the passage with 21st century eyes, or which Greek authors may have assumed to be a sixth-day event, not understanding that Passover would have been marked by literal star-gazing.

You might be interested in the comparisons to the present day Islamic lunar calendar also.

The Julian and Gregorian Calendars
http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/cal_art.html

Lunar calendar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar

Islamic calendar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

Posted on Jun 19, 2012 3:13:17 AM PDT
rstrats says:
Jonathan Hansen,

Do you have any information with regard to an author?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 19, 2012 6:48:21 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 19, 2012 6:51:44 AM PDT
7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.
(Acts 20:7)

J.H.--See this page about the book and the author of Acts:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/asv/acts/

Although I worship with a Lutheran congregation, I still believe that Seventh Day Baptists and Seventh Day Adventists make a decent argument that God never abolished the traditional Sh-abbot day of worship. Although gentiles aren't bound by mitzvoh (commandments of Judaism) with regards to Sabbath keeping, traditional Christianity accepts this evidence from the book of Acts about Christians gathering to break bread on the 'first' day of a Roman calendar week.

Traditional observance may seem to you like the tail wagging the dog, or like the bass-ackwards determination that crucifixion day is fixed according to an accepted tradition of gathering on the first day of a Roman calendar week, but to all the millions of Christians around the globe who accept it, regardless of understanding calendrical difficulties involved with attempted calculations of historical dates, any attempts to undermine the tradition by casting aspersions against the author of Acts are a straw-dog tactic. Early Jewish Christians didn't forsake their traditional Sh-abbot, even though they began to observe resurrection Sunday as well. At least, it enlivens some of the dramatic conflict which arose in New Testament prose.

[edit]
What I've listened to and read from would-be apologists, regarding Sunday worship is just so lame that their writing is something I'm resolved to stay away (far away) from.

Posted on Jun 19, 2012 8:29:18 AM PDT
rstrats says:
Johnathan Hansen,

re: "See this page about the book and the author of Acts:"

I'm afraid I don't see where the author of Acts argues for a change to first day observance based on the idea of a first day resurrection and quotes Mark 16:9 to support a first day resurrection.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 19, 2012 11:04:42 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
rstrats wrote:

------------------------
I'm afraid I don't see where the author of Acts argues for a change to first day observance based on the idea of a first day resurrection and quotes Mark 16:9 to support a first day resurrection.
------------------------

Why is this important to you?

Thanks,

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 19, 2012 1:32:36 PM PDT
rstrats says:
'probabilist,

re: "Why is this important to you?"

I say "why" in the OP.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 19, 2012 2:23:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 19, 2012 2:40:05 PM PDT
RSTRATS>>I'm afraid I don't see where the author of Acts argues for a change to first day observance based on the idea of a first day resurrection and quotes Mark 16:9 to support a first day resurrection.

J.H.--That's the point, rstrats, it's a non-argument to him because he spelled out the Communion/Eucharist practice was observed. That was the day accepted, and Sh-abbot was and is still the traditional day of Judaism. The issue of a change being made is whether non-Jews have any need or want to observe a traditional Jewish Sabbath. If you're not converting to Judaism it's a non-issue.

Coincidentally, today or tomorrow (tuesday or wednesday, June, 19th) will mark a traditional 'new moon Sh-abbot', versus the Gregorian Friday-night/Saturday-light cycle this week. Orthodox will likely observe both Sabbaths. No problem.

[edit]
Sorry, I can't offer you an example of an apologist citing Mark 16:9. But, even the textual critical method of evaluating those concluding verses cannot rule out an addition or sub-text being inserted by original authors at later dates. Conversely, it's not the same type of gross textual manipulation as marginal notes being inserted to different places in different texts by different scribes. Absent any autograph manuscripts, clearly written in differing handwriting, we can't prove the forgery either.

Examples like the Johannine Comma (google it) which are known to have political theological purpose and correspondance from early church apologists are, in my opinion, a more definitive salt-in-the-wound of dogma, fabricated of whole cloth.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 19, 2012 9:02:10 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
Hi, rstrats -

Why is nailing down the exact day of the week important to you?

Thanks,

'prob
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  14
Total posts:  57
Initial post:  Feb 5, 2008
Latest post:  Dec 29, 2012

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