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Will the Vatican wind up killing the Roman Catholic Church?


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Showing 51-75 of 281 posts in this discussion
Posted on Apr 23, 2012 9:40:53 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
To all,

It turns out the desktop hard drive will be in the shop for awhile, so I'll try to reply briefly, or in copy-paste replies. Oh, and I won't be accepting PDF sources any longer, due to their propensity forhiding malware tag-alongs.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 9:48:36 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Rubedo,

I was trying to research permanent deacons when my hard-drive crashed. Can you explain more about them?

Bishops may not like that permanent deacons are outside the "club", and thus may show loyalty to the laity over protecting the RCC image. Also, they have less control over them than priests and nuns.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 9:57:47 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Rubedo,

Re: "...And yet there is great growth in Africa and Asia, lower hemisphere..."

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23018

"...The church's population grew fastest in Africa, where the number of Catholics increased... about half a percentage point higher than the overall population growth rate on the continent..."

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/general-secretary/speeches/new-visions-and-challenges-to-ecumenism-in-the-21st-century.html

"...While institutional or mainline Protestantism may be in the decline in North America and Europe, Christianity is thriving in the countries of the South. New churches are springing up in all regions. For example, there is vibrant church growth in Africa and Asia..."

IOW, Christianity-naive populations are better hunting grounds for new converts than those who already know about it, warts and all. This goes for Protestant and Catholic alike.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 10:09:55 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
K. Cooper,

Re: "...As far as your comment about the "cheap labor going away" that happened already 20 to 25 years ago..."

And that loss has hurt the Catholic parochial school system severely.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0393.htm

"...Even so, we cannot hide the fact that the number of students in Catholic schools continues to decline. The peak was reached in 1965 when 5.5 million students were enrolled in Catholic elementary and high schools. In 1930, there were more Catholic elementary schools (7,225), with 2.5 million students, than in 2004 (6,574), with 1.78 million students. Moreover, in the same seventy-five-year period, the Catholic population tripled: from 20.2 million in 1930 to over 66 million in 2004..."

http://educationnext.org/can-catholic-schools-be-saved/

"...The problem is that there no longer are busloads of nuns; in fact, most schools would be lucky to have a Mini Cooper's worth of such minimum-wage professional teachers. Their ranks have declined by a staggering 62 percent since 1965 (from 180,000 to 68,000). The staff composition of Catholic schools has similarly been turned on its head, from some 90 percent female religious in the '50s to less than 5 percent today (see Figure 1). "The school system had literally been built on their backs," reported Anthony Bryk, Valerie Lee, and Peter Holland in their 1992 study Catholic Schools and the Common Good, "through the services they contributed in the form of the very low salaries that they accepted." Consequently, costs have soared; average annual tuition has gone from next to nothing to more than $2,400 in elementary schools and almost $6,000 in high schools..."

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 10:20:38 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
K. Cooper,

Re: "...I wonder what it is about the catholic Church that draws so many non catholics to comment, criticize and condemn...Isn't it enough to say " I'm not interested in joining that religion" and leave it at that?..."

The Hierarchy is throwing its considerable resources into backing legislation that negatively affects the lives of American citizens, whether they're Catholic or not. That makes them fair game for comment and criticism by all American citizens.

The current repression of the LCWR is based partly on their NOT participating in the Hierarchy's social agenda, i.e., making no comments condemining same-sex marriage, contraception, and Pro-choice Catholics.

Posted on Apr 23, 2012 10:25:31 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
To all,

I apologize if I didn't reply to your post. I only bothered to reply to statements that needed refution, and often didn't bother if someone else had already refuted it.

Posted on Apr 23, 2012 12:53:28 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Catholic Church.

I personally believe that Jesus Christ was supposed to have been reincarnated back around 1997 or so. That didn't happen however. The demons didn't want it to happen and it appears they have prevented it.

I'm wondering what effect this catastrophe is going to have on the Church, the entire world, the universe itself, etc..

I'm wondering also if this could be related to the third secret of Fatima. I don't think they've ever revealed everything about the third secret.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 1:01:14 PM PDT
Rubedo says:
Astrin Ymris says:
I was trying to research permanent deacons when my hard-drive crashed. Can you explain more about them?

R:
Each bishop can either support a program or not. Those that do get quite a few who can assist the priest in many functions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=diocese+with+permanent+deacons+in+the+catholic+church&oq=diocese+with+permanent+deacons+in+the+catholic+church&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=serp.12...2812.5140.0.8968.13.13.0.0.0.1.313.1750.0j5j3j1.9.0.0_wLVCBkmiQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4785863bd1e81af6

and yet some bishops resist.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 1:07:29 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Jeff, it's interesting that you mention 1997. What I've read is that Jesus (not the Christ) was scheduled to take over the church as the new pope back around 1980. Since the pope at that time (from 1978) was John Paul II I have grave doubts about that, since he was no Jesus!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 1:22:55 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 23, 2012 1:23:11 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Nancy Davison says:

[Jeff, it's interesting that you mention 1997.]

Well I know you're interested in mythology and the goddesses.

This goddess came into the world and the information I have as told to me by the demons is I was supposed to meet this person. We were supposed to get married and create the family structure to allow the Lord to return. Her name is Athena in the Greek myths, Isis in the Egyptian. She is one of the most beautiful women who has ever walked this Earth.

She is also Eve I think as indicated in the bible. The twin soul of Adam who was Christ in another form. I guess that's how Zeus and the other immortals were created. By dividing the soul of Christ Himself.

What happened is I told someone I had put a curse on them. That person was actually a demon. Those reckless and stupid words of mine gave the demons the power to interfere with God's plan and destroy my life and the life of this beautiful goddess.

I came home from work one night and there had been a car accident. This girl was trapped in a car where the passengers side was crushed and the car had turned over onto the drivers side. She had no way to get out.

The fire fighters were there and had the car tied with ropes to check for active fires before turning it back over and getting her out. What her injuries were if any I don't know. As I looked at this girl through the windshield there was something strangely familiar about her.

That was back around the 1997 time frame. What I didn't realize at the time was what I was observing there was the loss of everything I ever wanted in life. I didn't realize this until October of last year when the demons spoke to me for about 4 days and told me everything.

They had demonically possessed the driver of the other car which must have been traveling at a very high rate of speed to cause that kind of impact in a residential neighborhood. This guy looked like there was something wrong with him at the accident scene.

I'm not well and have left the Catholic Church after many years. The guilt and regret I feel for failing to allow Christ to be reincarnated is causing me to lose my mind with each passing day.

Jeff Marzano

Lives of the Master: The Rest of the Jesus Story

The Encyclopedia of Demons and Demonology

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 5:13:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 23, 2012 5:28:52 PM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Rubedo,

Sorry, but if the laptop gets infected I lose ALL internet access. What reasons do resistant bishops give for not wanting permanent deacons?

Edit: I found this article at NCR--

http://ncronline.org/blogs/just-catholic/we-need-more-not-fewer-deacons

"...Rumors abound that the Congregation for Clergy has asked bishops to evaluate the diaconate in their dioceses -- sooner, rather than later -- and that U.S. bishops are preparing their reports... the long arm of the Congregation for the Clergy reaching across the ocean to page through diocesan files raises other questions. Are they afraid of married clergy overtaking the celibates? Are they afraid the church wants to return to its tradition of women deacons? Or do they just want to cancel Vatican II completely?..."

Posted on Apr 23, 2012 5:35:29 PM PDT
Rubedo says:
"Are they afraid of married clergy overtaking the celibates?" That is my guess. I know one bishop thinks married men need to focus an the vocation of marraige only. That is all I know.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 8:29:39 PM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Rubedo,

Maybe they're afraid of the second-hand influence of women on the Church, as deacons will probably talk to the wives every day, and therefore be influenced by their point of view.

Hey, if the nuns thinking for themselves terrify them, how much scarier are women who AREN'T under a vow of obedience? ;-D

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 8:33:49 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Astrin, I left the church back in 1971, and a few years ago I was talking to a priest. When I told him I was no longer a Catholic, he said, "Oh, yes, you are, once a Catholic, always a Catholic." I assured him that I was not, that I had renounced the church when I was 36 years old, but it was as if he had his hands over his ears and was humming, "la, la, la, la" so as not to hear my "blasphemy". It's pitiful, really, when you think of it, that they are so threatened by the fact that many women are leaving the church. I wonder what they're afraid of?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 9:27:43 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Nancy Davison,

Re: "...it was as if he had his hands over his ears and was humming, "la, la, la, la" so as not to hear my "blasphemy"..."

The Magisterium seems seem to be doing that a lot lately... ;-D

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 9:40:10 AM PDT
Astrocat says:
Yes, I've noticed that ultra-conservatives, libertarians, tea-partiers, and church officials, all seem to have that nasty tic, that need to cover their ears and their minds so as not to see or hear anything that might confuse their clouded view of reality.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 9:54:34 AM PDT
K. Cooper says:
AY

1. You seem stuck on your notion that nuns are a cheap source of labor.
The exact salary of teachers,principals, librarians, etc. can vary from city to city as does the expenses racked up by each individual sister in carrying out her duties. But a few generalities can be made from conversations I have had:
In the long run, cost differences between a sister and a lay teacher are not great. If Sister X retires onher 7oth birthday and dies the next day, it's gonna be cheaper to pay her rather than a lay person. But if Sister Y retires onher70 th birthday and lives another 28 years, it would be cheaper to hire a lay teacher. The exact breakeven point can vary from diocese to diocese and from person to person but let's face it, many of the sisters do live to a ripe old age.
2. You cite the dropin Catholic School attendance. There are 2 main reasons- no baby boom and what it costs today.
In the 60s and 70s , when I attended Catholic Schools, Grades 1 to 8 were FREE and it cost about $400 to send a child to high school. (even at that time, the majority of my teachers were lay people and not sisters and priests) Now it costs $5000 a year to $10,000 a year per child. A lot of people just cannot afford it.
The cost difference is not that they kept the nuns on a bread and water diet and they had to march to school 3 miles barefoot inthe snow.
When I went to grade school, there was one basketball team and no other sports or extracirricular activities. When school was over, just about everyone went home. Now a school with less than 500 students has 15 and morebasketball teams, football teams, baseball teams, soccer teams, field hockey teams as well as Honors, Music, plays. Literally every student has multiple after school activities throughout theyear to participate in. They do this to compete with public and private schools and it all costs big money.
In my day, 48 to 50 students per class was common- it was the baby Boom. Now in order to compete, it is 20 to 25 students per class and that is a major cost.
3. Much of the growth in many areas in Catholics is Hispanics. There are about the same number of irishcatholics,Italian catholics, Polish Catholics but just very large gains in the numbers of Hispanic Catholics.
Much of this gain is in the inner city, where many people cannot afford the tuition.
A number of these children do go to Sunday school and there have huge gains in Sunday school attendances.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 11:11:34 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
K. Cooper,

Nuns were still cheaper than lay teachers. No one is saying they were free; just that their sworn-to-a-vow of poverty labor underwrote a lot of the costs involved in running the parochial school system. And had their numbers remained high, their labor could have offset a lot of the costs of providing those extracurricular activities.

Also, it should be noted that a lot of Protestant Evangelicals run church schools on a shoestring without needing to provide extracurricular extras to draw in parents from the public school system. The fact that Catholic Schools can't "compete" with other schools without them says volumes in itself about the state of the Catholic Church.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 11:21:17 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
K. Cooper,

BTW, nuns only live 4 years longer than their lay counterparts according to Dr. Con J. Fecher of the Roman Catholic University of Dayton. That's not enough to offset their lower salaries and turnover, not to mention their lack of dependents to cover on their health plans.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 11:24:08 AM PDT
Rubedo says:
"Hey, if the nuns thinking for themselves terrify them, how much scarier are women who AREN'T under a vow of obedience?"

R:
Celibates afraid of women?
I wonder how many are actually gay.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 12:22:04 PM PDT
There are a lot of gay priests and educated estimates range from 40-70%. But I don't think they're afraid of women, per se, because the majority of priests I dealt with who are gay, proved to be more empathetic with clergy abuse victims than many of their hetero counterparts. But, I think they do fear that a mostly married priesthood--or priesthood composed of mostly hetero married men--would 'out' many gay priests in ways they don't wish to be forced to deal with. Right now, they can safely exist in a kind of ambiguous state. Gay, but in being constrained by their vows of celibacy or chastity from being overtly sexual, they have a perfectly legitimate reason for not openly volunteering knowledge of their sexual or gender preferences to anyone, apart from their confessor. A mostly-married priesthood would make it obvious that some priests are remaining celibate because they have no interest in being married to any woman.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 12:33:30 PM PDT
D. Thomas says:
Rbdo wrote: "The situation is clearly going to get worse in coming years, mainly because of the aging population of the largest religious orders."

"Worse"? I think the correct word here is "better."

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 12:34:39 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Alexandra Roberts says:

[But I don't think they're afraid of women, per se, because the majority of priests I dealt with who are gay, proved to be more empathetic with clergy abuse victims than many of their hetero counterparts.]

When, how, and why do you 'deal with' gay priests or any other priests ?

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 12:42:16 PM PDT
D. Thomas says:
LTH, possibly quoting an Orthodox priest: "I wish I could wear God's clothes so that the waters would part for me ... "

Isn't the problem that the clothes won't part for the waters?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 24, 2012 12:53:39 PM PDT
D. Thomas says:
If the trend holds, they'll just move the Vatican to Ivory Coast (Yamoussoukro) or Brazil (Aparecida). The construction of those enormous edifices presaged the RCC's future in the global south, where superstition, authoritarianism and machismo can still find fertile ground.
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