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Customer Discussions > Religion forum

The death of a dear agnostic father and a atheist mother


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Showing 76-100 of 778 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 1:45:59 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
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Posted on May 29, 2012 2:49:29 PM PDT
BudBaut,
I met many of the posters here on another forum about books about god. We exchanged, with the OP, different types of theological, proof, and others that the OP was looking for. In her quest for God, she was looking for more than dogma, and doctrine; something that is often understood as second hand faith.

I have found many of those here to be insightful and well read in Christian and other religions. Their journey through life is enhancing my understanding too. They are willing to answer questions for you, but I prefer the discussions of life and how we perceive it and resolve its difficulties or explain its tragedies.

But my original point was that grief can cause even a believer to "doubt", without someone helping them to see their way back often requires them to understand that "doubt" is biblical.

FWIW, Pastoral counseling deals with meeting a person where they are and helping them to find their way. Counseling is always about assisting with a healing process which is different for each person. The pastoral part allows for the counseling to include the belief systems that aids that person in that healing. An example: http://www.still-waters.info/pastoral.php. Lay pastoral counseling does not handle as severe of losses, and seeks to refer the more serious problems to appropriate clinicians.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:13:34 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
rndd: The only people I am aware of, currently, that want only their belief system as part of the law are the Taliban. In the US, I think there needs to be a vigilantes that no "one religion" ever becomes the law of the land.

spl: I too like the separation of church and state.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:14:33 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:17:32 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:44:04 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 3:45:23 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
Yeah, you make a good point that often is stated. We do get more concerned with our "rightness" rather than really trying to help others find what we have found. I fall into that trap frequently, and as you've said I go back and wish I'd been more holy in my reply. And as I see Whomper, who has the truth but does not emit the holiness and compassion that I'd like to see, I seldom berate that kind of Christian, for it's easy to fall into that.

But I do see that there is a time for "holy harshness", for in the past I've seen Jesus as being pretty harsh, and it kind of shocked me, for I thought he could be more loving and compassionate, rather than condemning. I see the OP's use of his dying parents as making an argument for atheism, which I thought was pretty callous, TBH. He could have just talked about his parents deaths without baiting Christians, and using it as an attack on Christianity, and that is what shaped my reply.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:45:51 PM PDT
BludBaut,
Perhaps I should have said "they are baiting you". But it seemed, at the time, that every time someone said you are being irrational that is exactly the kind of explanation that was typed. I don't happen to find SK and I think SM particularly hateful, although I've seen one of them "set others up!". If one intends to "preach" to blasphemers it would seem, logically, that reacting to the blasphemy is counter productive: hence "you are hurting your case".

To date, I believe the StevePl may have a point, I've only seen and received reaction. You are correct it is difficult to type "tone", at the same time most of what I've received "feels" like I'm being yelled at and even you reacted with LIAR! Explain to me how that starts any kind of dialogue? I certainly seriously considered assuming that you were not worth pursuing a discussion with.

Although I haven't thoroughly studied all that you have written I might expect that this post might create a dialogue with those you wish to "reach" --- especially when you seem to be able to defend that Christianity is not about after live but a more abundant life. Of course, that may lead to a tangent about obesity but if in that "silliness" (which incidentally I thoroughly enjoy ) you can actual share ideas, beliefs, and disbeliefs.

To date I have not seen anyone try to "explain" what you have said about after life. It however, won't be easy to convert anyone that their life is not already abundant. A philosophical discussion about what eternal life might get you some comments if you can at least temporarily remove the necessity of mentioning "the only true God". You might find that some of the philosophies are closer to you than you think; they just aren't using the word god. I will grant you that it is difficult not to use the language you understand and has meaning to you. And that makes me want to ask you if you have tried to open a checking account recently? I get in these conversation, tell me about your accounts ---- which ones are you interested in ---- what are my choices ------ well we have a key account, a carriage account, special savers account, 50 and over account ... ----- well what the difference between them ----- it depends upon what you want!!!! To the bank people those words convey real meaning to them, to me even the one that appears to be understandable 50 and over isn't really clear whether it is accounts over 50,000 dollars, a celebration of a bank longevity, or an age requirement which probably isn't even 50 years of age but 55! Until concepts can be explained, a dialogue is difficult at best.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:49:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 4:19:42 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
I'm sorry all three died prematurely and I wasn't knowledgeable enough or wise enough at the time to prevent their untimely deaths, but any spiritual counselor or pastoral care leader is unwise and doing a disservice if he doesn't help those who have such an anger issue understand that it is misplaced.

I'm not at all suggesting that their grief counseling session be stopped to hammer them with their sin of wrong judgment against God. If you are a good counselor, you know that each person is different and needs to be handled differently, but the stupidity of blaming God needs to sufficiently be addressed lest it become a cancer that robs the life of the one wrongly judging God.

I was very fortunate to have God so reinforce His love to me so long ago that I didn't get angry at God for the same reason I didn't get angry at you. It wasn't either one of your fault.

Too many people don't understand how much trouble and problems can be avoided if they'll simply believe the truth of the Word of God and understand that Jesus was telling the truth when He said, "I am come that men might have life and have it more abundantly."

We are born ignorant and most of us are taught from a very early age that selfishness is wrong. God kindly put an abundance of checks and balances in our lives to help guide us in making the right decisions. One important check is others.

This is why atheists anger me. They lie and deceive people.

At first, I wrongly attributed your remark to sm. Seeing my error, I wanted to correct it but I still feel strongly think you represented wrongly that anger at God is normal in loss, though I understand that it is common because people are ignorant of God because the vast majority of us don't seek God or have a 'hearing ear' to His life and truth.

I don't think 'common' and 'normal' should be regarded as synonyms in the area of spiritual light. Anger at God for any reason at all is the attitude of a fool who lacks understanding. God is good and kind and compassionate and merciful. That we're still alive is evidence of that.

Here in my fourth edit of this post (or is it five? ;-)) I wanted to clarify that my hasty mistake of attributing your post to sm provoked my anger, already seeing his and sk's mockery of God and Believers, knowing that they live daily reveling in misleading people and seeking to turn them from light and life. This was the reason for my outburst of "You're a liar," and I do appreciate your forbearance in your response to me.

Part of the reason I wrote my lengthy response to SPL was my recognition of my own error with you. The truth that "God gives grace to the humble" is a great stimulant to quickly admit our wrongs.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 3:58:27 PM PDT
StevePL,

I didn't see the OP as arguing for atheism at all, I went back and skimmed it and still don't see what you saw. I see a celebration of a life where he was surrounded by love and caring. A family that was close and celebrated their love for each other. In grief, most do not normally "bait", although I can see that in the topic, perhaps. The OP mentioned a Christian training, and a mother that had quietly stated she was an atheist. My question to you is why would she keep that as a secret unless she were afraid/tired of what she had been exposed to and she believed was Christianity. Perhaps both died with god, perhaps not. Celebrate the love the OP had for his parents and let go the things you cannot change.

Personally, the peace that passing all understanding seems to have been attained.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:15:59 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 4:18:21 PM PDT
D. Thomas says:
What else is there to say? A lovely, moving tribute.

You're one helluva of a writer, by the way. If it's not your line of work, you ought to take it up.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:18:18 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:19:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 5:11:19 PM PDT
D. Thomas says:
Crap, as usual. And yes, I'm being too kind.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:22:41 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:27:39 PM PDT
BludBaut,

I appreciate your concern, and difference. To date, I have only experienced the acknowledgement of the anger as a release that frees the person to more clearly heal and understand. In my experience it is the non-acknowledgement that leads to the "turning away", but as I've said before my experience is limited.

I don't believe that the forum poster that was speaking about a friend will be helped until the anger is worked through. It is also possible that the friend's wife will be "mad" because her prayers are not answered. Until she deals with that anger in a more meaningful way than just being told it is wrong, it is likely to be difficult for her to heal.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:38:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 4:46:56 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:41:20 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:42:05 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:44:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 4:47:27 PM PDT
BludBaut,

I meant to acknowledge your loss. It is especially difficult to deal with premature deaths and then when one "wishes" they knowledgeable enough. I am assuming your healing is progressing, and that know that you are not really in control of the outcome. God or not there are things outside our control and the "what ifs" can smoother you. For you I'm sure your faith sustains you in the knowledge that you lack of knowledge is not the reason for your loss.

BTW, that is not my website.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 4:45:33 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:00:21 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
Reed N.D. Dark said, "Although I haven't thoroughly studied all that you have written I might expect that this post might create a dialogue with those you wish to 'reach'."

I've spent probably somewhere in the neighborhood of two years on YouTube and of the hundreds and hundreds of atheists I've seen (with my three user names), I can only think of one who was honest and reasonable enough to possibly consider a dialog because the one remark of his that I read was castigating another atheist for his dishonesty.

One in many hundreds over the course of a couple years paints a pretty bleak picture of the character of atheists. When one considers Jesus' plain remark in Jn 3:19-20, it's easy to understand that that "atheist" and "no character" go together, so this is not a group that I am trying to reach.

I speak to atheists for a couple of reasons. One, to confront and expose their utter and complete dishonesty, and additionally for the naive, ignorant and uneducated who don't know what to think because they're just young, partly to counter the lies of the the liars and partly to present truth to them.

The only liars more vicious and dishonest than atheists are sexual perverts. To the public they whine how mistreated they are but in the background, they rejoice that they already control the news and entertainment media along with virtually every aspect of public education and look forward to the fulfillment of their plans to have the freedom to publicly commit every conceivable form of uncleanness including the seduction and molestation of children with impunity. They announced it years ago and it boggles my mind that they've brainwashed so many people that this is a good thing.

Regarding your suggestion of subtlety (though you didn't use that word), the Bible says, "Cursed is the one who does the Lord's work by deceit." Integrity of heart and clarity of meaning is important and appreciated by those who are honest. NO ONE appreciates deception and misrepresentation. Jesus has been exalted as both Lord and Christ and will reign over all. I have no reason nor desire to come in "through the back door" in representing the truth.

Now, I will agree and acknowledge that there are times to not be too forthcoming with too much truth too fast because some people do have perspectives that will hinder them from hearing truth because they will immediately put "filters" in their ears if they hear one is a Believer, but I think those are individual and discretionary circumstances most often encountered in a personal interaction and I wouldn't normally anticipate running into such a thing online although God is God, not I and I've seen that He is so creative and unique, it's a treat to see Him do new things and I've learned the more rigid our forms the less of His glory and grace we see.

Yet, I want to acknowledge what you're saying, that even those in the dark do see some light even though they have it mixed in with a lot of lies and deceptions and it might well necessitate our sensitivity to navigate a conversation with them. Nevertheless, when we know the truth, our genuine confidence in the truth does communicate a message to those who know they're only guessing.

Jesus didn't beat around the bush with the words, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." There is no ambiguity there. Would I not be deceitful if I suggested, "if what you believe works for you, whom am I to tell you you're wrong," when I know without a shadow of a doubt that "there is no lie of the truth"?

"To date I have not seen anyone try to "explain" what you have said about after life."

I'm not sure what you mean exactly and there's no reason for me to guess when you can just explain it to me.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:09:45 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
I'm not sure to whom you're speaking but I agree with every point you're making, especially Jesus' harshness to the Pharisees, calling them a brood of vipers and sons of the devil. This is widely ignored by the vast majority of Christians who don't appreciate Prov 26:5 either (As an aside, in all the claims of contradictions that lying atheists make, they never mention 26:4-5).

It's not only Jesus, but both His brothers do the same thing, as did Stephen, Peter and Paul, yet if we do it, we'll always get some Christian (who usually knows no more doctrine than what he's been told) tell what the Bible says, that Jesus never did that and how would we like it, failing to recognize that Ecc. 3 actually means what it says and isn't just the lyrics to "Turn, Turn, Turn."

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:24:54 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
Are we supposed to think that Mitt Romney is quotable because he's the Republican leader for the Presidency?

Then should be believe the lies and deceit of Obama because he's president?

I'm more interested in what Jesus said about righteousness being reinforced by law.

Do you know that blasphemy against God was commonly against the law in this country when the country was founded and that "religion" referenced different denominations of Christianity and not the pagan religions?

Should be back away from our legal establishment agreeing that what the Bible says is right, is indeed right, because a religion of the devil has implemented that wickedness in another country?

Is it a legitimate perspective that because an evil religion oppresses people, the right religion would do the same?

I think that's a grave fallacy. Evil is the result of evil men walking in agreement with the prince of darkness. Evil can corrupt anything. But, the government we have murdered the president, put his murderer in office, later elected three more men who were part of the scheme and later put a criminal in office who, but the time he got out of office had 27 murders credited to him and then with the collusion of the media put a deceiver and an unqualified man in the office of the presidency who has increased our debt to 17 trillion dollars, the highest of any in history and you want to argue that a biblically based government would be worse?

I think that's irrationally absurd.

Posted on May 29, 2012 5:38:01 PM PDT
Spinoza says:
Stephen, that was truly a beautiful post. I had the same thoughts about my grandfather lying in the coffin before burial - what was there was merely an empty shell, not my grandfather. Whatever animated him, made him a unique individual, never to be repeated again, was no longer there. I had this sense that "he" was forever gone, and at the same time, that this was the most reasonable and natural thing in the world.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:39:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 5:41:05 PM PDT
BludBaut says:
I didn't really expect you to fully understand my remark. Without question, over 99% of people wouldn't relate to a remark suggesting humans have the power to prevent death, but if you believe the Bible and understand that the authority in which Jesus walked was not that of the Son of God but of the son of man, then it's not difficult to see that all the dead He raised means that part of what He was communicating was that we can too.

Now, before you jump to too many conclusions, don't think I'm suggesting that such power is at our discretion. It is, of course, necessary to be walking in the Spirit and know the will of God. I wasn't suggesting that Jesus raised anyone from the dead simply because He wanted to, but that the same parameters which guided Jesus must guide us to walk in the same power.

Neither am I suggesting that I could have changed the results in the deaths of each of those involved, but I know that I could have changed the death of at least one. But we grow and learn and fail and learn and the day will come when He will wipe every tear from our eyes. All because He is good.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:43:10 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
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