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Matthew 12:40


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Showing 1-25 of 77 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jan 13, 2013 1:52:58 PM PST
rstrats says:
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn't include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 13, 2013 9:12:35 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 13, 2013 9:31:12 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 13, 2013 9:26:47 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Here's something from http://carm.org/how-long-was-jesus-dead-tomb

The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day.1 "Since the Jews reckoned part of a day as a full day, the 'three days and three nights' could permit a Friday crucifixion."2 This phenomena is exemplified in scripture in the book of Esther. "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way," (Esther 4:16 ). Then, in Esther 5:1 it says, "Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace." We can see that even though the three days and nights had not been completed, Esther went in to see the King on the third day even though she said to fast for three days and nights. We see that "on the third day" is equivalent to "after three days."

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 13, 2013 9:31:40 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 12:10:04 AM PST
Astrocat says:
Citation, please.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 7:16:08 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 7:40:51 AM PST
rstrats says:
andthehorseirodeinontoo?,

I'm afraid I don't see where any of your links show that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn't/couldn't include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 7:57:31 AM PST
rstrats says:
Nancy Davison,

re: "The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day."

As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase " 'x' days AND 'x' nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase " 'x' days AND 'x' nights" was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English. Again, if you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.

re: " This phenomena is exemplified in scripture in the book of Esther..."

The use of Esther 4:16 and 5:1ff to support the idea that the 3 days and 3 nights that the Messiah said he would be in the earth isn't to be taken literally, is not appropriate. Nothing in your Esther references precludes at least parts of 3 nighttime and at least parts of 3 daytime periods.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 12:12:23 PM PST
Astrocat says:
rstrats, I'm interested in why it's so important to you that the "3 days and 3 nights" be literal, 24 hour days.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 12:45:28 PM PST
rstrats says:
Nancy Davison,

re: "...I'm interested in why it's so important to you..."

One of the "small groups" that I attend is studying Matthew, and of course verse 12:40 brings up the seeming problem with a 6th day crucifixion and a first day resurrection. Several solutions are tossed around, with one of them being the notion that a phrase stating a specific numers of days and a specific number of nights was a first century idiom that didn't require the specific number of days and the specific number of nights to take place. I am simply interested in seeing if that was true by finding an example from that time that can absolutely be taken no other way.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 3:50:48 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Okay, I get it. Moving on.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 4:53:51 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 4:54:32 PM PST
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Posted on Jan 14, 2013 8:34:58 PM PST
rstrats says:
andthehorseirodeinontoo?,

re: "read the page where the link went"

I still don't see where any of your links show that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn't/couldn't include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights.

Posted on Jan 14, 2013 8:42:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 16, 2013 9:30:01 AM PST
It is maintaining the number three, a very important number in Gnostic tradition.

It has nothing to do with the understanding the Jewish had of the measurement of actual days:

>>This symbol a triad or trinity. It is a symbol of the unity of body, mind and spirit. The symbol is of universal significance - it is found throughout history and all over the world.<<

From: http://www.greatdreams.com/three/three.htm

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 14, 2013 9:24:04 PM PST
one of the links had an in depth analysis and cited the places where the bible said that it was a FULL day

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 3:56:34 AM PST
rstrats says:
andthehorseirodeinontoo?,

re: "one of the links had an in depth analysis and cited the places where the bible said that it was a FULL day"

In the immortal words of Struther Martin: "What we have here is a failure to communicate". I am not looking for an example where 'x' days and 'x' nights are used where the period of time has to include both the 'x' days and the 'x' nights - I'm looking for an example where they don't.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 9:03:24 PM PST
that would be false and useless to the discussion

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 4:11:38 AM PST
rstrats says:
andthehorseirodeinontoo?,

re: "that would be false and useless to the discussion"

I don't understand; exactly what would be false and useless?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 9:23:05 AM PST
asked and answered

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 5:57:48 PM PST
rstrats says:
Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some first century writing.

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 6:20:35 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 16, 2013 6:31:51 PM PST
The 3 days is taken directly from the multi millennium pagan practice of celebrating the 1st day of the celebration of solstice the sun dying. Its the last day of the days getting shorter. The next day the day is the same length so the sun is in its grave and the 3rd day the day is longer which is the beginning of His new life, also the birth of Horus by the virgin Isis the most popular goddess in the world at the time also called Meri. The sun then continues its triumphant victory over the underworld with each day thereafter getting longer. Easter the next celebration of the mysteries the day and night are equal and following that the days are longer than the night until June. 4 annual celebrations of what were called the mysteries all over the pagan world. Interestingly Anup Horus uncle baptized him in June the celebration of the flooding of the Nile. The waters and the sun bring life. Of course 12 and 30 were also significant numbers and adopted for the Christ story. All religions prior to Christianity had a strong element of what is called Astral-theology. Judaism and Christianity in most cases just change the names which is a major reason why it was adapted so quickly no real change for a simple illiterate people. Horus was also called the Redeemer, good Shepherd. It the winter solstice the 3 stars in Orions belt which even up until today in parts of the world are still called the 3 wise men point directly to Sirius the brightest star which in turns point to the rising Sun who became our savior. It still is of course. There are so many discrepancies in the gospels this is more expected than not. The last supper and a trial on the day of Passover, not possible and the gospels have conflicting days. No Census, no killing of infants by Herod, no earthquakes. Mat 12:40 merely one of dozens. The writer of Mark and the lost Q gospel took all the popular stories and created a new version.

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 6:43:40 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 16, 2013 6:46:30 PM PST
here is a verse from Mathew that may shed some light on the truth of the gospels and Jesus message.

For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)
Since the world was ending soon and heaven awaited maybe not so terrible if only he had kept his promise. Of course we would have never lived.

It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said "Thou shall not kill". For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of "all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses" (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

check it out evilbible.com

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 6:47:40 PM PST
And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) There are many more quotes on this topic

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 9:49:34 PM PST
the commandment says do not MURDER
which is different than kill
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  77
Initial post:  Jan 13, 2013
Latest post:  10 days ago

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