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The desire to "immanentize the eschaton" -- is it a good goal, or a bad goal?


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Initial post: Nov 3, 2012 11:42:33 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Conservative gadfly William F. Buckley Jr famously popularized a political slogan in which the desire to "immanentize the eschaton" was something bad that his opponents wanted to do.

In your opinion, is it a good thing to seek, or not? Why?

Thanks,

'prob

___________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanentize_the_eschaton

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 11:56:38 AM PDT
Bubba says:
As wikipedia says "It has been used by conservative critics as a pejorative reference....", I see no reason to acknowledge his saying it.

William F. Buckley Jr. was a pompous ass in addition to being a "Conservative gadfly".

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 11:59:40 AM PDT
'probabilist says:
Yes, he was that, too.

,.-)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 12:03:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 1:17:41 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
The wikipedia article also says, "The term has [also] been used in reference to Christian sects, such as Christian Zionists, that subscribe to dispensationalism and work to hasten the Second Coming of Jesus and consequently the end of the world."

Your thoughts on whether this is a good goal or a bad goal?

Thanks,

'prob

_______________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 12:10:49 PM PDT
Joe W says:
"I am the Eschaton. I am not your God.
I am descended from you, and exist in your future.
Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else."
-- The Eschaton, "Singularity Sky"

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 12:16:05 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 12:16:48 PM PDT
Bubba says:
I think that Christian Zionists are VERY dangerous; they want to do what they can to destroy the world. They think that it is in preparation for, or to trigger, the Rapture.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 12:57:50 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 12:58:08 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
Joe W quoted:

-------------------------------------------------
"I am the Eschaton. I am not your God.
I am descended from you, and exist in your future.
Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else."

-- The Eschaton, in Singularity Sky
-------------------------------------------------

Heh. I wonder if this Eschaton and the Cthaeh might be siblings?

,.-)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 1:09:12 PM PDT
Joe W says:
It seems unlikely! :-p

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 1:15:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 1:16:06 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
Not even with the Cthaeh as the Evil Twin?

,.-)

______________________________________________
The Wise Man's Fear

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 4:57:02 PM PDT
Eric Pyle says:
"The burning-bush contract introduces a revolutionary quality into the Biblical tradition, and its characteristics persist through Christianity, through Islam, and survive with little essential change in Marxism. Of these characteristics, the most important are, first, a belief in a specific historical revelation as a starting point. Israel's story begins here and in this way; Christianity begins with Christ and not, say, with the Essenes; Islam begins with the Hegira of Mohammed, Communism with Marx and not, say, Owen or Fourier. Second is the adoption of a specific canon of texts, clearly marked off from apocryphal of peripheral ones, along with a tendency to regard the heretic who differs on minor points of doctrine as a more dangerous enemy than the person who repudiates the whole position. Third is the dialectical habit of mind that divides the world into those with us and those against us."

--Northrop Frye, The Great Code: The Bible and Literature

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:04:09 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Pompous ass, indeed. Once I saw a panel of people from a variety of religious and other systems of thought, facilitated by Bill Moyers. It would have been marvelous, but Buckley played the "studied stupidity" card, pretending not to understand how anyone who wasn't Catholic could possibly be taken seriously. So the Buddhist, the Jew, the Protestant, and others I can't remember, were hamstrung by his stupid obtuseness. I was a recently ex-Catholic and remember watching his antics in amazement and being oh, so, glad I was no longer a member of that church.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:26:51 PM PDT
Here is a radical right wing take on the phrase I ran across last week.

On the sadly misnamed "American Thinker" website, a poster calling himself "Chestertonian" wrote in response to an article decrying the progressive left,

It's far worse than the article indicates. Secular humanism is only a tactic, not the goal. The progressive left is the world's biggest Gnostic cult. Scientism is their philosopher's stone; the "Lost Word" seeking to transform lead into gold, a metaphor of turning humanity into gods (or Transhumans) and immanentizing the Eschaton (we are the ones we've been waiting for..."fundamental transformation"). Science is magic and miracle in this system. Witness the "transhumanists" and the quest for immortality. The calls for a "scientific dictatorship" from HG Wells to Richard Dawkins.

When "citizen of the world" Barack Obama told an eager Berlin audience that he saluted the "divine spark within us all" he was simply reiterating the Gnostic cosmogony spoken against by St. Paul and St. John in the New Testament.

In this worldview, it is compassionate to abort babies, since material existence is the true evil and who would wish to punish women with babies, or punish babies with existence. Pessimism is the surest sign of Gnosticism. This world is not a good world corrupted in the fall of man, you see. This world is evil because it's materiality is itself "separation from the Divine Spirit". Material wealth is the sign of a necessary evil (necessary for the Gnostic gospel to proceed in all realms of influence); that, unless used to spread the ancient anti-philosophy of the Luciferians, must be countered, confiscated and defeated.

The family, faithful Churches, true philosophy and patriotism are all impediments and delusions in this system: delusions that keep the ignorant (non-Gnostics) from embracing their truest selves, which is as an emanation of the "collective soul". Individualism is evil because it hides the "true nature of reality" (we are One) in selfishness. Therefore, individual salvation does not and can not exist. Recall Mr. Obama's assertion that his individual salvation was dependent not upon himself or his "god" but upon collective salvation. This is the root of the progressive faith that government must solve all problems...the "collective will" must solve all problems.

The secularist pose is just that, a pose. The goal is Luciferianism, complete with rituals, sacrifices and a new age (ancient) hodgepodge of mythos that all, metaphorically and symbolically, tell the same fundamental story: "ye shall be as gods."

Witness the ease with which the left literally idolizes their leaders, from the cult of Rousseau, Napolean; Lenin; Stalin; Mussolini; Hitler; through the "self-actualization" cults of Astarte in the 20's to Guyana, the Family, the Process Church, the Manson cult and Heaven's Gate; to the faux-Greek "Throne of Pergamum" complete with rays-of-the-sun emanation/iconography for the One, Barack Obama. Even the pop versions today and their admiring press calls them "rock gods" and "Divas."

We're in big, big trouble folks. This isn't secularism.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/08/the_progressive_lefts_secular_theocracy_comments.html#comment-610361576

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:37:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 5:37:49 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
Yikes.

Could the author have packed just a few more mismatched bogeymen into that passage?

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:38:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2012 5:39:31 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
> "...Third is the dialectical habit of mind
> that divides the world
> into those with us and those against us."

A sort of generalized tribalism?

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:41:15 PM PDT
It's unlikely.

I originally posted that on another forum. Another poster cogently replied,

Immanentizing the Eschaton belongs in the top ten of stupid theistic phrases., and the idea that the "divine spark within us all" quote is anti-religious is laughable. Back in the 17th century Quakers shocked their neighbors by preaching recognition of "the inner light in us all". The Puritans didn't like it -- they were more about stamping out joy and light wherever they found it, pointing out that life was supposed to be grim the better to keep mortals focused on heaven. To underline their point, Puritans in Massachusetts Colony stoned, jailed and hanged Quakers. How odd that today there are people who still think the idea of a "spark within us" is evil. Maybe they're latter-day Puritans? It does sound like they'd enjoy stoning liberals and atheists :/

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:48:11 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
'prob -

Anybody who coins a phrase with a gnarly non-word like "immanentize" should be jeered off the public stage.

It is true that liberal religion sees "the immanent" as the neglected side of God, and the Kingdom of God as a saving process in public social life as important as individual salvation. Scratch them very far and you find that conservatives like Buckley hold the same positions, but they change the wording so that the political implications come out sounding different.

Does the RCC see the immanent God as important? You bet: Christ, and the Body of Christ, and the church outside of whom there is no salvation? These are all traditional doctrines. Do they believe in bringing about the Kingdom of God on earth? No questions - we have a duty to care for the poor and the marginal and the helpless, in RCC doctrine. Catholics have often been at the forefront of radical and progressive political movements. Buckley tried to wrap himself in the mantle of orthodoxy, but I am afraid His Williamness had nothing on.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:48:41 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
BAD. very bad.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:52:05 PM PDT
Eric Pyle says:
<<Immanentizing the Eschaton belongs in the top ten of stupid theistic phrases>>

The phrase basically means "making heaven on earth." A Catholic believes such a thing is impossible. I do too.

To the extent that Marxists wanted to create a utopia on earth, they were fantasists. When they used violence toward this end they were morally wrong. Today's conservative politicians are incorrect when they conflate social programs like Medicare with violent utopian schemes like Lenin's.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:52:24 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
" Secular humanism is only a tactic, not the goal. The progressive left is the world's biggest Gnostic cult"

Yikes indeed. This is so bizarre it is interesting, but I agree it is also scary.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 5:53:01 PM PDT
'probabilist says:
> but I am afraid
> His Williamness
> had nothing on.

Aye. I agree.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 6:00:35 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
Eric -
"The phrase basically means "making heaven on earth.""

Well, okay, but the Fourth Gospel is known for its "realized eschatology" - the "Kingdom is within you" and so it has already been realized. If one doesn't set ones' standards for the public sphere too high, then "heaven" is already on earth, in a manner of speaking.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 6:06:40 PM PDT
Eric Pyle says:
Harry,

That's because you're more sophisticated in your theology than media celebrities who pretend to be intellectuals.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 3:45:54 AM PST
Bubba says:
"Puritans in Massachusetts Colony stoned, jailed and hanged Quakers"

Christians are such a loving and peaceful bunch, aren't they?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 3:51:03 AM PST
Joe Anthony says:
Bubba says:

"'Puritans in Massachusetts Colony stoned, jailed and hanged Quakers'...Christians are such a loving and peaceful bunch, aren't they?"

I say:

Actually, many or even most Christians are loving and peaceful or at least they try to be. I don't think that it's fair to hang what happened 400 years ago around the neck of every Christian...do you?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 3:56:08 AM PST
Bubba says:
Yes, I do; Christians are still just as hateful as they have ever been, but they don't kill as many people now because of the secular laws against killing.
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
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Initial post:  Nov 3, 2012
Latest post:  Oct 2, 2013

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