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Atheism vs. Christian. How is this productive?


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Initial post: Dec 2, 2012 8:47:16 PM PST
dahlingz says:
This debate has been one that has always been and always will be. But what does it produce? I am a non believer myself but do I think I could, or rather would I ever try to put down another belief or even debate it anymore let alone think I am going to sway ones beliefs to conform to mine? Very few people in history have been able to change the minds or beliefs of others and they are some of histories biggest monsters. I attend church and am accepted there as a known non believer and hang out with the two pastors there from time to time. We dig in each others minds just to get an idea of why we believe what we do but its productive and short lived. I go to the church to support my fiance who wants our son to be brought up christian as she was and I am ok with that. I know when he is old enough he will either stick with the belief or lose it on his own. Same to you christian fighters who love to stir the pot. Why egg on atheists once you know they arent budging? Its not what your bible teaches(yes I have even read the bible) . I know you are to spread your word but to force it is silly. Why argue something if in your heart you fully believe in your faith? You dont or shouldnt have to defend who you are and neither should we. Do and believe what makes you happy and leave it at that. I dont lose sleep or get angry at what you hold true in your mind so why worry so much about us who dont share the belief? If hell is there then so be it. The thing is that we will never know and which is what makes the whole argument a waste of time. Life is short and we all could be doing more with our time

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 8:53:29 PM PST
'probabilist says:
dahlingz wrote:

---------------------------------------------------
This debate has been one that has always been and always will be. But what does it produce? I am a non believer myself but do I think I could, or rather would I ever try to put down another belief or even debate it anymore let alone think I am going to sway ones beliefs to conform to mine? Very few people in history have been able to change the minds or beliefs of others and they are some of histories biggest monsters. I attend church and am accepted there as a known non believer and hang out with the two pastors there from time to time. We dig in each others minds just to get an idea of why we believe what we do but its productive and short lived. I go to the church to support my fiance who wants our son to be brought up christian as she was and I am ok with that. I know when he is old enough he will either stick with the belief or lose it on his own. Same to you christian fighters who love to stir the pot. Why egg on atheists once you know they arent budging? Its not what your bible teaches(yes I have even read the bible) . I know you are to spread your word but to force it is silly. Why argue something if in your heart you fully believe in your faith? You dont or shouldnt have to defend who you are and neither should we. Do and believe what makes you happy and leave it at that. I dont lose sleep or get angry at what you hold true in your mind so why worry so much about us who dont share the belief? If hell is there then so be it. The thing is that we will never know and which is what makes the whole argument a waste of time. Life is short and we all could be doing more with our time
---------------------------------------------------

I found this to be a thought-provoking post. Thanks.

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 8:54:27 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 9:04:06 PM PST
Astrocat says:
dahlingz, you may know this already, but it seems to me that the "believers" who so assiduously desire to convert all the nonbelievers are just not quite sure that their belief system is correct, and so, if they can convince you and as many others as possible they're hedging their bets, and they're recruiting people to be on their team. That way they "win", because they have more "players", and are the majority, and therefore "right" in their own minds. They can relax because they're surrounded by the like-minded, and are not threatened by those who might pull back the curtain and reveal that the "wizard" is really just an ineffective old man.

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:09:48 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'You can't infer probability from a sample size of one. Even if we knew this to be the only universe, we don't know the processes behind its existence.'

- Mark Hornberger, on another thread

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 9:11:12 PM PST
Says the guy who dumps on everyone.

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:11:17 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'If you want to find out how the world actually works, you have to frame your questions and answers in terms of nature and its processes. That doesn't require atheism.'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "First Causes and Rational thought"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:12:14 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'It looks to me as a given that everything begins and ends in religion and irrationality - and the aeon of "rationality" is just a brief detour on the long road to Xanadu.'

- Redcrowdog,
on the thread titled "First Causes and Rational thought"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:13:15 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'The problem here is not that some people believe in God, but that some of those people want to redefine science to protect their religious beliefs. There is no way to fix science so it never offends anyone's religious sensibilities, yet still remains science. If the evidence points to common descent, I don't care if someone in Kansas finds that offensive.'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "First Causes and Rational thought"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:14:15 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 9:48:33 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'Millions of Christians have no problems with evolution. ... No, I'm not religious, but Dawkins has nothing to do with that. Even if I came to Jesus tomorrow, the evidence still points to common descent and evolution. Evolution no more means there is no God than does Newtonian mechanics.'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "First Causes and Rational thought"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:15:01 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'How would we even identify the supernatural if we encountered it? How could you distinguish "the supernatural" from something you just didn't know the cause of?'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "Final Thoughts on ID Theory -- Hopefully"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:15:52 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'Even if there *were* another realm of existence to which we are not privy, that doesn't mean we have any way of knowing its nature, what or who is in it, or that it/they created the universe or life.'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "Final Thoughts on ID Theory -- Hopefully"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:16:33 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'If you can arrange for your actions to stop affecting me, you can do whatever the heck you want. You're demanding to be left alone to drill a hole in "your" part of the lifeboat. '

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "Why are Christians Often Anti-environment?"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:17:27 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'I've seen no indication that God has used anyone, ever, for any purpose whatsoever. I just see fallible people claiming that an infallible being is speaking and acting through them.'

- Mark Hornberger,
on the thread titled "Final Thoughts on ID Theory -- Hopefully"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:20:31 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'A clear rulebook gives us the excuse to give up our mercy by imagining that we are doing justice.'

- Eric Pyle,
on the thread titled "The Bible's unbelievability is a good thing."

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:20:53 PM PST
'probabilist says:
----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I see on this forum the atheist myth that people were Pure before the Fall.

In this case, "pure" means logical and reasonable, and "the Fall" means inculcation into religion.

I'm quite sure it doesn't happen that way.
----------------------------------------------------

- Eric Pyle,
on the thread titled "Avoiding Atheistic Mythology"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:21:27 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'I still think it likely that after they [the mystics] have stripped away one or two layers of illusion, what they have is not The Truth, but another conceptual construction. It may be more satisfying and more deeply felt, but it isn't free of individual mental creation.'

- Eric Pyle,
on the thread titled "The Bible's unbelievability is a good thing."

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:21:58 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'The things that we know but we don't acknowledge knowing -- the beliefs we hold without admitting that we hold them -- are the ones that rush in and fill in the gaps when we think we are at our most open-minded.'

- Eric Pyle,
on the thread titled "The Bible's unbelievability is a good thing."

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:23:27 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'[William] Blake's God is a God of forgiveness.'

- Eric Pyle

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:24:08 PM PST
'probabilist says:
"It is important that Blake's Eden isn't a place where everything is known or every argument is settled. People there live in continual debate and discovery. Yet this is carried on without enmity."

- Eric Pyle, on the "William Blake" thread

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:24:48 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'It's a good exercise to present your case to all kinds of people, I find. Those who DON'T know the jargon, and haven't spent their lives in the same grad school as you, but who have learned plenty of other things, make challenging interlocutors.'

- Eric Pyle, on the thread titled
"A thread for degreed theologians"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:25:49 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'The distinction about who can tolerate ambiguity best may not fall strictly along red/blue or believer/non-believer lines. Both sides have to endure uncertainty.'

- Eric Pyle, on the thread titled
"Faith, reason, evidence, and cognitive dissonance"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:26:24 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'If we are honest with ourselves, we recognize that any one of us can be wrong. A strong society can tolerate different viewpoints so that we may continue to debate. It is the ones who are certain they know the capital-T Truth, and devalue those who don't, who are scary.'

- Eric Pyle, on the thread titled
"When the inevitable backlash comes..."

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:26:54 PM PST
'probabilist says:
'I am a fan of the muddling-through approach. It seems wise to recognize that some necessary human things are incompatible with other necessary human things, and trying to reach any kind of absolute in our lives will not have good results.'

- Eric Pyle, on the thread titled
"The Re-Enchanted World"

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:30:35 PM PST
'probabilist says:
_______________________________________
Eric Pyle wrote [on the thread titled
"A Genuinely New Slant On The Theist-Atheist Debate."]:

-----
One trouble we often run into on this forum is the definition of the word "belief". It covers a wide semantic range.

For example, I think the sentence "I believe this chair will continue to hold me up for the next few minutes," is fundamentally different from the sentence "I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity." Atheists object to the second, but of course not to the first. If you pronounce that atheists have beliefs, just as religious people do, we may object based on the kind of belief you seem to be talking about.
_______________________________________
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  30
Total posts:  156
Initial post:  Dec 2, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 18, 2012

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