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The arrogance of belief from religious experiences


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Showing 1-25 of 83 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Nov 16, 2012 1:11:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 16, 2012 3:56:07 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
I think "believers" who think God helps them in prayer and/or who can't understand that dreams and hallucinations(whether religious or not and whether profound or not) are not demonstrative of actual reality - they are actually not ignorant but extremely arrogant and self-worshipping. Not saying that this is their conscious motive, but it's an implication of their supposed beliefs. For one, if you feel like you have been personally blessed, as opposed to lucky, it's such an egomaniacal thing to believe. What you are basically saying is that God passed by me and most of us, including the dying, diseased, mutated, and starving children in the world - he passed by them all to get to you. The feeling of "God is good to me so He is good." whether you admit that's what you feel or not, it's ridiculously egocentric.

But onto the actual point of the thread, the brain.

Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. It's incredibly unreliable, especially given the fact that we all hallucinate and our memories aren't playback of recording devices, they are reconstructions filtered through our prior prejudices and mixed with later occurences. And if there is motive to believe something it may be believed to be more how you wanted it to be than it actually was.

"Waking consciousness is dreaming - but dreaming constrained by external reality." -Oliver Sacks

The fact that pattern seeking mammals can listen and hear deities or dead loved ones is no more demonstrative of a reality than the fact that my schizophrenic friend can look and see a six eyed fish on my lap.

Humans are fallible, to believe we have a ticket to an inner lesson from a deity is to reject the fact that we are fallible and to have the conceit that your brain is adequate to declare some kind of "Universal Truth" or "the answer". Our introspection and intuition cannot give us anything but impressions of our own mental life, which are hard to interpret and give us no objective information to lead us to cosmic knowledge. Science is the only road that can lead us to knowledge of objective reality outside ourselves.

There is much incentive to delude ourselves. It is harder to be skeptical, but it's more honest and humble to admit our fallibility and accept subjective ignorance rather than making wild assertions about the nature of your experience.

Posted on Nov 16, 2012 4:07:29 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
"At this point one must expect to meet with an objection. 'Well then, if even obdurate skeptics admit that the assertion of religion cannot be refuted by reason, why should I not believe in them, since they have so much on their side tradition, the agreement of mankind, and all the consolations they offer?' Why not, indeed? Just as no one can be forced to believe, so no one can be forced to disbelieve.

"But do not let us be satisfied with deceiving ourselves that arguments like these take us along the road of correct thinking. If ever there was a case of a lame excuse we have it here. Ignorance is ignorance; no right to believe anything can be derived from it. In other matters no sensible person will behave so irresponsibly or rest content with such feeble grounds for his opinions and for the line he takes. It is only in the highest and most sacred things that he allows himself to do so. In reality these are only attempts at pretending to oneself or to other people that one is still firmly attached to religion, when one has long since cut oneself loose from it.

"Where questions of religion are concerned, people are guilty of every possible sort of dishonesty and intellectual misdemeanour.

--Sigmund Freud

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:09:27 PM PST
our resident atheist befouls the religion forum again with this rants

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:11:29 PM PST
Religion befouls all of humanity with it's arrogance.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:12:35 PM PST
spout that atheist krapp in the atheist forum
and leave us alone

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:14:22 PM PST
horsie

This is the religion forum. Show me where it states we are not allowed to criticize religion as a basis for discussion.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:18:54 PM PST
amazon rules for politeness and civility

you are not discussing
but harangueing and starting arguments with your krapp tha tbelongs in the atheist forum where you could do it properly

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:21:48 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 16, 2012 4:22:04 PM PST
So kit's ok to start atheist bashing arguments on the religion thread but atheists aren't allowed to bash religion? Is this another theist double standard?

Posted on Nov 16, 2012 4:24:38 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Bringing up the subject of "belief" again seems to me like providing fuel for the explosion. What I've achieved from my spiritual/religious experiences doesn't need "belief", it doesn't call for anything as nebulous. My experiences have convinced me that the path I'm creating is the best one for me, and that's that. Note I said "the best one for me". Everyone is, of course, choose to agree or disagree. I choose to accept and have confidence/faith based on experience.

I do not believe, I understand
I do not worship, I practice what I understand.

Posted on Nov 16, 2012 4:29:15 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
I'm not bashing religion, I mean I do but this is about a particular flawed thinking in a religious mind to ignore our fallibility and believe in "the answer" from inner experiences. It's a clear excuse to fool oneself and not a real reason to believe. It's a point, not an insult. It's insulting to your own intelligence to employ such excuses for believing what you imagine.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:33:47 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
What a self-defeating belief. You believe you don't have beliefs.

That's a false belief right there from the start.

Your brain is not infallible and capable of just understanding everything that's true simply by BELIEVING that to be the case.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:35:21 PM PST
Seeking Faith: Is Religion Really What You Think It Is?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:36:47 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Oh, dear, Jack. We've been over this ground so often. Can't you just take me at my word that I have no beliefs? Why is this such a stumbling block?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:39:24 PM PST
Nancy

Naughty, naughty. I demonstrated that you did. Being honest is the best basis for beginning to establish a realistic view of the world. By continuing the 'no beliefs' farce you are lying, either to yourself or us.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:43:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 16, 2012 4:50:02 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
You being factually wrong is not a "stumbling block" for me at all. It's not personal that I am saying you have beliefs. I don't care that you claim you don't have beliefs, you're wrong. Belief means to accept that something is true. You have beliefs like anyone else.

Also, you are clearly insecure about the fact that you have beliefs since you need to constantly make it clear to others that you are so above and beyond belief in your purity. It's a joke. You're the one that brings it up and has to make it the focus because you want to make a point. Point made, you're insecure.

It's okay that you have beliefs, we all do. Not talking about a particular thing, but we all have them.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 4:59:26 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Mark, you demonstrated that I did what? Have beliefs? Only by your reckoning, not by mine.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:01:32 PM PST
Jack Vix says:
If someone is holding a ball and says "I'm not holding a ball", it doesn't really matter, they're still holding a ball.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:02:01 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Jack, don't you and Mark, and people like you see how you simply can't tell a person that she is wrong when it comes to her assessment of her own life and her own system of thought? That's like telling a person with blue skin that she really doesn't have blue skin, because you don't think it's possible to have blue skin. Therefore, her blue skin is a figment of her imagination, and for her to continue to affirm that she does, indeed, have blue skin, is a false "belief", but a "belief" nonetheless.

You are simply on the wrong track here. And in danger of becoming derailed.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:30:14 PM PST
Nancy

Nope, you agreed. And you were ticked off about it. Remember the word 'opinion'? You admitted the opinions were beliefs. Of course, you weren't allowed to spin your definitions. Would you like me to hunt down the posts?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:34:07 PM PST
Nancy

No. Beliefs, including yours, do not trump objective facts. You are just playing games to squirm out of it again. Either you have six toes or you don't. Just because you believe you have six, does not make it so. Do the people with brain injuries that leaves them with no left, really have no left. It is false contrary to what they believe.

Posted on Nov 16, 2012 5:41:40 PM PST
Horse:
"our resident atheist befouls the religion forum again with this rants"

"spout that atheist krapp in the atheist forum
and leave us alone"

"amazon rules for politeness and civility"

***********
You people really don't see contradictions, do you?

Posted on Nov 16, 2012 5:45:12 PM PST
Why is it that theists have the biggest trouble with the 'motes and beams' stuff?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:51:58 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Mark, the fact is, I have five toes, and if I "believed" otherwise I would either be a fool or delusional. Nor am I "playing games". What I'm trying to do is tell my story the way I see it, and you and a couple of others keep saying I don't really mean what I'm saying, indicating that I should accept their long-distance, cyber assessment of my character and my life, even though you've never met me.

I don't have to "believe" anything about the number of toes I have. I can take off my socks and count them, so there's no need for fantasy or wishful thinking. If you believe you have a certain number of toes and have never verified that fact I think you're a very odd individual.

It's pitiful, but it's also funny, the lengths you go to to try to twist and distort to make your case.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 5:58:05 PM PST
Nancy

No you are the one with odd belief that you among humans are unique because you don't admit to having beliefs. You admitted have opinions, which in fact, are beliefs. You should perhaps meditate on why you refuse to accept that you have beliefs. When it obvious to the rest of the world that you do.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2012 6:10:51 PM PST
Joe W says:
Nancy: Oh, dear, Jack. We've been over this ground so often. Can't you just take me at my word that I have no beliefs? Why is this such a stumbling block?

Joe: Nobody believes you, Nancy. :-D
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  15
Total posts:  83
Initial post:  Nov 16, 2012
Latest post:  Nov 26, 2012

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