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vichara = subtle thought


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Initial post: Aug 28, 2011 11:17:11 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 28, 2011 11:20:40 AM PDT
Rubedo says:
As a meditator I have questioned the distinction between vitarka (gross thought) and vichara (subtle thought).

I have foudn this site commenting on the Yoga Sutras to be helpful at times.

Meditation on the subtle: It is very important to reflect on the principle of meditation on the subtle elements. Meditation at this stage means that you are dealing with the very building blocks of all of the objects on which you might meditate in their gross form. You are focusing not only with objects normally seen to be external (the things of the world stored as memories in the mind), but also the very instruments (such as senses and mind) by which those objects are experienced. In this way it becomes increasingly possible to attain non-attachment to the whole realm of gross matter, along with their subtle counterparts and the mind itself.

http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-11718.htm#1.17

It seems to me very simple thought, or pure awareness of just being there, asmita, I-am.

Gross Objects: The notion of meditation on a Gross Object is pretty straightforward, including any of the familiar Objects, such as visualized images, sensation, breath, mantra, and attitudes, etc..

Subtler components: All of the Objects are constructed of five Gross elements called bhutas, and these are earth, water, fire, air, and space. These five also have five Subtle elements, called tattvas, which are the Subtler aspects of earth, water, fire, air, and space. Subtler than these are the mental processes and three components out of which these arise, which are called gunas (sattva, rajas, and tamas).

Although one may be practicing meditation on Gross Objects, which is extremely useful, it is also important to recognize that these Subtler explorations of the component nature of the Objects is a further stage of the meditation process. The particulars of how to do those Subtler meditations come with practice and training.

http://swamij.com/types-stages-meditation.htm

Clarification anyone?

In reply to an earlier post on May 9, 2012 11:23:42 AM PDT
Astrocat says:
Rubedo, I find the meditation on the more subtle world takes me into the "silence", above the chatter of the lower mind.

In reply to an earlier post on May 9, 2012 4:19:35 PM PDT
Rubedo says:
Nancy Davison says:

Rubedo, I find the meditation on the more subtle world takes me into the "silence", above the chatter of the lower mind.

R:
Yes but how does one meditate on "the mental processes and three components out of which these arise, which are called gunas (sattva, rajas, and tamas).

In reply to an earlier post on May 9, 2012 4:33:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 9, 2012 4:34:55 PM PDT
IFeelFree says:
If one practices meditation innocently, easily, without effort, allowing everything to be exactly as it is, the awareness naturally settles and thoughts become more abstract, more subtle. One will experience subtler levels of thoughts (which are objects of perception) effortlessly. There is no need to hold onto such subtle levels of thought, or try to discern their meaning, etc. Simply be the observer, the witness. At some point, it might happen that thought falls away and one is experiencing a state of pure awareness, without any object. With regular practice, over time, one becomes more familiar with pure consciousness itself, and with the subtler levels of mind -- even during daily activity. This happens spontaneously, without the need for any particular effort on your part. As a result the descriptions in the Yoga Sutras will become clearer in your mind.

In reply to an earlier post on May 9, 2012 4:35:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 9, 2012 4:36:14 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Rubedo, I don't meditate on the gunas all that much. I recognize them, and know them for what they are. I use Raja Yoga and Agni Yoga (the Yoga of Synthesis), which are connected to, of course, Rajas and Sattva, but I don't use them as seeds, per se.

And yes, IFF, that state of awareness "above" the chatter is the prerequisite for the beginning of each day.

Posted on May 10, 2012 10:59:20 AM PDT
Rubedo says:
Thanks to you both. When I get to that inner stillness without object it is nice and calm but seems to be only a threshold. I would like to go further and I thought a subtle object would be the key but that seems to involve thought again, though it may be much subtler than usual. What I usually do when a though arises is reflect nonverbally on "being here". That seems pretty subtle to me but I'm not sure how it fits into the scheme of things other than as "asmita". That seems to be my favorite subtle object if I understad all this correctly.

Light and peace to my sisters and broethers in meditation.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 11:48:37 AM PDT
Astrocat says:
Rubedo, I agree that that space without thought is like an ante-room to Reality. I always feel as if I'm waiting for the next part of the process.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 12:33:03 PM PDT
IFeelFree says:
I am taught to treat thought as simply a symptom of purification or stress release. I neither try to hold onto thoughts that arise in meditation, nor do I try to push them away. I use mantra meditation, and when I become aware that I'm no longer thinking the mantra, I very easily come back to the mantra. There is no effort involved. Just the simple, natural process of thinking the mantra (or whatever technique you are doing) and taking it as it comes.

Posted on May 13, 2012 10:42:52 AM PDT
Rubedo says:
Nancy & IFF, once again I invite your input:

http://www.amazon.com/forum/meditation/ref=cm_cd_NOREF?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1M7OSSGHMHURM&cdPage=6&newContentNum=137&cdMSG=addedToThread&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3VWSJR9ZA8D5L&newContentID=Mx21V0Q9BUV8YUL#CustomerDiscussionsNRPB
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  3
Total posts:  9
Initial post:  Aug 28, 2011
Latest post:  May 13, 2012

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