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The self-referential loop of consciousness

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Initial post: Jul 27, 2012 8:37:30 AM PDT
Spirituality makes use of the self-referential loop of consciousness. At every level of reality consciousness looks at itself, from its grossest identification with matter and body, to the most subtle forms of detachment. When consciousness identifies itself with objects, the self-reference of consciousness feels as being self-conscious (insecure, doubtful, fearful). In its most subtle form, -in detachment-, it feels as the Witness witnessing consciousness itself, as awareness. This already feels as liberation from pain and suffering.

The art of spirituality consist in tracing back this self-referential loop to its beginning, making use of the subtle Witness to go beyond consciousness itself. The beyond is the Real. All self-consciousness, all self-awareness and all witnessing is still part of duality. These subtle forms of duality need to be used to get to the beyond.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 6:55:21 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
I don't know how many big words can be strung together before the human mind loses its ability to comprehend what's being said. But you are approaching that threshold I would say.

Do you think that 99.999999999 % of the world's population would have any idea what you are talking about ?

Jeff Marzano

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 7:09:04 AM PDT
Just like any art or science spirituality (religion) needs expertise to understand it. The expertise of spirituality is familiarity with the inner world of the subject (the 'Inner Experience', as Bataille called it), just like science uses familiarity with the outside world of the object.

If you do not understand my posts I recommend you to do some courses in meditation first, to come to know your own inner word, and also read some books about apophatic (or advaita or mystical or buddhist or esoteric etc.) spirituality.

Google some of these words. Do some reading and you will gain a lot more understanding about spirituality and religion. Then come back to my posts.

Thanks for your reply.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 7:45:27 AM PDT
Philosophico-religious BS.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 12:06:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 12:07:22 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Jan F. Brouwer says:

[Then come back to my posts.]

I'm Catholic. For Catholics Christ was the great spiritual teacher. Abraham and Moses are in there also but from the Old Testament.

It was Christ's ability to explain great truths in terms that simple people can understand that makes Him the greatest philosopher of all time, at least for Christians. Christ often used parables to convey these truths.

For me personally Edgar Cayce was another, and for me perhaps the only, other great spiritual teacher. Cayce spoke in a very strange way when he was put into a hypnotic state, but what he said is still comprehensible to me since I understand the nuances of the type of language he used.

There are some concepts, some ideas, which cannot be easily explained using language.

I find the following quote from the Cayce material interesting. This was Cayce's response when people asked him to explain the psychic abilities of the Atlantean Hept-Supht:

"This would almost be impossible. To put such into words would be as impractical as it would be to describe what the multiple of colors as related to vibrations brings, reduced to the 11th or nth degree."

Hept-Supht is an interesting character in Cayce's Egyptian material. That name means "he that keeps the record, that keeps shut".

Hept-Supht was present at a ceremony with Ra Ta and Isis where the Hall Of Records was hermetically sealed and the apex was placed at the top of the Great Pyramid. This was a great day for the ancient Egyptians.

There's a theory that at one time on planet Earth people were able to communicate telepathically using a type of radiation. Whether everyone had this ability I don't know.

People lost that ability at the time of the Tower Of Babel event in the bible. But the plants and animals can still understand the radiation.

Jeff Marzano

Edgar Cayce's Story of the Origin and Destiny of Man

Egyptian Heritage: Based on the Edgar Cayce Readings

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 1:03:48 PM PDT
Mystical spirituality -the thing I practice- is also tradionally known for its knowledge of paranormal abilities, The great Indian mystic and Yogi Patanjali describes more than ten psychic powers (siddha's) the accomplished yoga practicioner will be able to master.

But mystics always warn against the use and even the preoccupation with such paranormal powers.

The aim of spirituality is not to acquire extraordinary powers (however interesting this may be). The aim is to transform the self, to make it blissful and happy and sovereign, in the full notion that God is all we want and all we need. The rest is child stuff, great food for si-fi writers, but not for grown ups, like you and me.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 1:19:51 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 1:23:29 PM PDT
MLC says:
You make a good point, Jeff. If spiritual truth is that complex, then it is inaccessible to some people. How unfair is that?

However, Christianity is all about connecting with the person of Jesus Christ and anybody can do that, no matter their age, no matter their intellect or educational background, be they mentally handicapped or a member of Mensa. Jesus is accessible to everyone because he makes himself accessible to all. It's simply a matter of saying yes to him and entering into a relationship with him.

All of this talk of awareness of self and consciousness is useless. It is Christ who helps us see ourselves as we really are -- sinners who cannot help themselves out of their sin and therefore need a Saviour.

As for liberation from pain and suffering, it isn't possible. Trying to meditate our way out of it isn't going to change a thing. We live in a fallen world. Sin has marred everything and everybody. It is human nature to try to avoid pain and suffering. However, it makes far more sense to look at these things Biblically -- as things that Christ can help us through victoriously, that he can use to help us mature spiritually, that we can learn from and which will make us more compassionate to other people who also suffer.

All the concentration on self will not alter our sin natures. Only Christ can re-create us and remove our sins. All the concentration on self will not make the world a better place. Only Christ can do that as we work in his redemptive power. We cannot transform ourselves. Only Christ can transform us. Only Christ can transform the world.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 2:22:09 PM PDT

Spirituality also makes extensive and intensive use of the mind/brain's ability to fool itself. So you have to explain how someone tells the difference.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 2:50:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 29, 2012 12:17:28 AM PDT
The mystical intrepretation of Christianity, like explained by mystics as Meister Eckhart ea. runs a bit like this: God the father is the transcendent Godhead (the Hindus call this Brahman), his Son is the incarnate God as it is manifested in the world (or: saguna Brahman, also called the Atman or the embodied Self, living in us all).

This Self is the divine living in us, also known as Christ consciousness or the Holy Ghost. It is different from the personal self, which has indeed its limitations, while the Self (the indwelling Christ) connects us to our source God, the Father (or Brahman).

The mystic identifies with the divine Self and not with the personal self. By becoming the Self she realizes she is imago dei, or 'born in the likeness of God'. 'I and the Father are One', as the Master said.

Google ahead and you'll find many similarities between mystical Christianity and other forms of spirituality like Vedanta. Stop staring at your Christian navel and find out that spiritual treasures are found all over the wolrld, showing a great amount of similarity. Christians were not the only ones who became enlightened.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 3:32:34 PM PDT
If you have read the latest post carefully you have learned that even the dogma of the Trinity is shared by many mystical traditions.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 4:01:12 PM PDT

So how do you know if you are simply deluding yourself?

Posted on Jul 29, 2012 12:21:26 AM PDT
How do the other contributors to this topic know they are not fooling themselves? When they are alone they look in their hearts and look at the results.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 12:38:10 AM PDT
Eric Pyle says:
Oh, that's easy.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 6:12:02 AM PDT
mark says:
Can the brain lie to itself?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 7:53:29 AM PDT
Oui. It's called "cognitive dissonance" and it's a salient, perhaps the most salient, characteristic of human consciousness.

Posted on Jul 29, 2012 9:25:03 AM PDT
That's why mystics transcend their mind and its "cognitive dissonance' and are satisfied with resting in pure Being. The mind is fallible. The source of the mind is not, since It always is, even when the mind doubts its own functioning.

How do you know? you might ask. You are right, I cannot know the Source with my mind. I can only know what resting in Pure Being does to my mind and soul(the fruits, the results) . It makes me blissful, happy and full of mental clarity. That I know, because I cannot escape knowing that.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 9:03:05 PM PDT
mark says:
That's the mind lying to awareness in defiance of consciousness. One's power resides in the noumenal judgements consciousness demands, manifested in phenomenal action.

Shaking your head, aren't you (grin)


Posted on Jul 30, 2012 12:04:31 AM PDT
Yes, because one's power resides in the ability to transcend the mind. The mind is limited. Seek unlimited power and bliss.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 12:13:03 PM PDT
No, I recognize attempts at baffling with BS for what they are.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 2:53:14 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
simply "saying yes to him and entering into a relationship with him."

The average mentally handicapped person would be able to make no sense of that at all. You should recognize that a spiritual interpretation of prayer, for example, is a sophisticated process. Most trained clergy quickly reach the end of their ability to discuss what is going on in "a relationship with Jesus" - so why would you think it is simple?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 3:00:07 PM PDT
Harry Marks says:
I agree that consciousness is self-referential in its essence. The notion of a soul is really about ability to choose, and to become what we seek to become. Thus if we say someone's soul is in danger, due to the temptations of power, say, this means they are in danger of becoming unable to reflect on the appropriateness, or lack of, of their own ends and means.

I am not sold on the wonders of mindfulness and the Witness, (I am heavily attached to community as a source of peace and balance), but I have a lot of respect for it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:03:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 6:06:51 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Jan F. Brouwer says:

[If you have read the latest post carefully you have learned that even the dogma of the Trinity is shared by many mystical traditions.]

In Greek mythology Poseidon's trident represents The Holy Trinity. Not only does the trident represent the Trinity, the trident IS the Trinity.

Poseidon is always associated with the number three.

The bible mainly captures the experiences of two groups of people; the Hebrews in the Old Testament and the Christians in the New Testament.

Other books such as the Egyptian myths tell about the spiritual experiences of the Egyptians.

There are various other mythologies such as the Greek's. For the ancient Greeks Zeus and those others were very real. For them the will of Zeus was final and unalterable.

Mythology is the common thread between all of the world's religions. In many cases the Egyptian gods and goddesses exist with different names in the Greek myths and also in Christianity and the Catholic Church.

I'm not too familiar with the Hindu mythology. But there are strange statements in those stories that seem to imply that atomic weapons were used in the ancient past on planet Earth.

The mysterious alchemist Fulcanelli confirmed this:

Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work

Fulcanelli was a Christian but a very mystical one indeed. He called himself a philosopher. He claimed that he had witnessed lead being transmuted into gold. The way he described it sounds like the lead "died" and was resurrected as gold.

That's one of the powers of the philosopher's stone material. It can transform one metal into another.

The philosopher's stone can also restore and preserve eternal youth and perfect health.

People who saw Fulcanelli at various times claimed that he appeared to be getting younger.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:09:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 30, 2012 6:15:35 PM PDT

Actually you do not look into your heart. If is someone is fooling themselves, which we all do, you actually should be doing critical thinking not intuition.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:10:10 PM PDT

Of course it can.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 30, 2012 6:11:39 PM PDT

You do know the source of all those feelings have been located in the brain?
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  10
Total posts:  30
Initial post:  Jul 27, 2012
Latest post:  Jul 30, 2012

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