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Heroes that grovel correctly *Possible Spoilers*

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In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 1:39:43 PM PDT
Double D says:
Okay, did he say he did everything but the ultimate act? I don't remember that part.... I have to go look it up. I couldn't sleep all night. And I don't feel sorry for OW for some reason. But if he wore his wedding ring, then why did no one in his office know he was married? Remember how the co-workers were talking in the end. There were a lot of loose ends. And besides he loved his wife so much, I can see that he maybe wined and dined her, but I thought when they started to get to the physical part that was when he said no. I don't want to think that he kissed and made out with her, but you really do???? I am going back in to read a couple of parts over. Stay tuned.

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 2:22:21 PM PDT
With all the discussions about the Ultimate Betrayal on the board lately I did a re-read of it last night and find that I have missed a lot of little details the first time around. I liked Daniel a lot more this time around because I felt that he was truly sorry about what he did to Rachel and how he had hurt her emotionally. He asked for her forgiveness several times throughout the book even after when finds out that he hadn't actually slept with Lydia, her knew he had hurt her on a higher level than just the physical betrayal. What really makes me believe in the HEA this time around is because of what Daniel said/did towards in the last part of the story. When they were having the discussion in his office and he explained to her what happened and didn't happened and what he went through the whole time, Rachel said she may never trust him again because if he caves under pressure six year down the road he may do it to her all over again. He told Rachel that it won't ever happen again because "it didn't work this time around." I take that he meant he looked elsewhere for comfort this time around and he really hadn't found the type of relieve or whatever he was looking for in another woman's arms. Besides he realized what he did was foolish and it almost made him lose his family and the woman he loves most. I truly believe that he won't make the same mistake twice and that next time he will run to Rachel for comfort and support instead.

The other thing that I think is very symbolic of his slowly changing attitude towards mixing his business life and family life is when Rachel saw those portraits/drawings she made of herself and the kids on his desk (or on the wall?). He took those drawings and framed them, Rachel asked him why he took them and he said he wants to look at them whenever he wants to. He was hurt that Rachel never made any drawings of him and she explained that it was because she knew the kids all love her and but she wasn't so sure whether he loves her or not. Before this Daniel never had any family pics or paraphernalia that suggests he was a married with kid in his office. This indicates that he isn't afraid (or don't care) if his business associates and employees knows about his wife and family anymore. When he finally left the building with his family in tow in the end he meant for everyone to see that scene, Rachel even teased him that now everyone will know that now his macho ruthless tycoon image will be ruined.

This is one of those stories that gets better and better each time you read it. I think the first time around it was too emotional for me to take in the details but this time I knew what was coming so I took the time to analyze the details more carefully. Great read, totally recommend it!

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 2:31:36 PM PDT
Double D says:
Okay, I reread it again and he did say that he betrayed her every way but the ultimate act, but then he said other things too like "I never let it get that far", "I never touched her" "I couldn't put my hands on her, it made my skin crawl", etc. so I guess I will never know. I do think he loved her very much too. That is why I was hoping he only wined and dined her.... I will just play make believe and pretend he said he never kissed her or anything, just emotionally betrayed her. That's good. It hurt to reread it too and I only scanned it. Ouch. Thanks everyone for all the opinions. I love them.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 5:14:47 PM PDT
Michigangirl says:
The other woman did not get him drunk. He got himself drunk. She found him completely trashed and took him back to her place. He goes knowing what she's expecting of him.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 5:15:05 PM PDT
I just finished reading Simply Love, and while I appreciated his frustration in trying to get her to understand her duties short of rape, wasn't she just a bit thick?

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 6:51:47 PM PDT

You are right. He does go knowing what she's expecting but in the end he could not do it. It hurt just reading what you wrote and remembering it. I'm a glutton for punishment because I love the angst. I've read this book so many times and cried so much that if I ever found out my husband was cheating on me I would be all out of tears. His clothes would be in trash bags (why give him the good luggage) and ready for him by the curb. Besides real life never seems so poignant. (Thank Heaven) ;o)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 7:10:35 PM PDT
Reader says:
I'm with Michigangirl, the H choose to go home with the OW knowing what was expected. It made me feel better that he did not defend her actions when she called the house (yes, that was wrong but it sounded like she had little choice). He didn't make excuses for her, but ultimately, I still think that both women in this story were victims to the H.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 7:51:48 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2010 8:14:20 PM PDT
The OW knew he was married, she just wanted to be the next wife. Then she lied about there being sex because she was angry at being turned down. (and if it had happened the way she claimed it did it would have been her taking advantage of a passed out drunk who'd already refused her - ie: rape) Then she called the house when she did have other options on who to call and was specifically told not to call his house. She wasn't a victim on any count.

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 8:51:07 PM PDT
Poster With No Name

Well put. I agree.

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 9:02:22 PM PDT
Double D says:
I agree with tpwnn. She was no victim IMO. And I don't think the h was to blame either. She had a difficult birth, the kids had the measles, and she was being the Mother of his children and keeping his house, and he never discussed his work with her anyway. Even if she would have asked, he wouldn't have told her because he wanted them separate. The only thing she was guilty of was loving him too much and letting herself just remain status quo. She even packed his bags when he went on a trip for him. When I read that I couldn't believe it. And he did say, I knew what was going to happen and I went anyway. I didn't rally like him at times. And when he said living in this cardboard house with 3 little brats, and then HE said if you can't open your eyes during the act, I will never touch you again. I almost died. What a selfish jerk. I know he made up for it but oh the angst.

And then I go and read Gold Ring of Betrayal. OMG! Whoever said her heroes don't cheat lied. I have read The Arabian Love Child, which I hated, and then The Ultimate Betrayal and now this. They are horrible, horrible heroes. Maybe they redeem themselves but at what a cost. I ordered Lost in Love too and I think I may just have to put that away for say like a year before I can read it. She is killing me. I don't know if I can handle any more emotions. Ultimately, I loved the Gold Ring of Betrayal and the Ultimate Betrayal very much. I just can't believe how much they got to me. My heart needs a break for sure.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 9:05:13 PM PDT
Michigangirl says:
The problem is, he did not refuse her. He never pushed her away physically and he never verbally rejected her.

I say this because in the book, in his words, he says that he found he didn't want to touch her, and "she must have seen it in my eyes" because she left him at that point and he passed out immediately after. He didn't know where she went, and there was a question that she'd come back and they'd actually had sex that he just couldn't remember.

According to MR in those days you didn't just ask someone if they were married. There are many reasons why he would have a wedding ring on and the biggest one is he's widowed. There was no wife anywhere around and apparently you just didn't ask. Whether or not he's the one that moved things forward, or she did, or if it was mutual isn't discussed. We can believe the OW is evil because first of all, she's the other woman. We have Daniel saying she's one of those horrible people that's not a good person, but he must have found something he liked about her in the months that he was basically dating her. He can say she's a horrible person because it eliminates any guilt he might feel about her. He would be a completely horrible person if he'd betrayed his wife and was leading on the other woman also, so the escape is that she's a shark and just had her eye on the prize.

The other woman isn't very forgivable in the fact that she lies about the sex taking place. Assuming that she lied then and not that she lied later after she finds out he's a horrible person who led her on when he was really married with children. I don't think she's horrible for the phone call though. Mostly because he walked into that situation with his eyes wide open. If he hadn't done what he'd done, there would be no other woman to call the house. It wasn't Lydia that was hurting Rachel, it was the fact that Daniel had an affair with Lydia.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2010 9:16:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2010 9:18:30 PM PDT
MR said to those who asked that the OW knew he as married. She knew he didn't want to sleep with her otherwise she wouldn't have left. She obviously didn't do it because she changed her mind since she lied about them doing it anyway the next day. Frankly I find the evil/bad OW/OM/ex trope a cop out but there's nothing in this book that tells me she is a kind good person or that she was used. She knew he was married, she didn't give a damn about his wife or kids and directly lying to him telling him they had sex and then calling his house showed she didn't give a damn about Daniel either a person. She wanted what she wanted irrespective of who she hurt and she did it all rather cold bloodedly. She's a bit of a cartoon but that's how she was written. Ditto the artist wannabe lover of the h who had to become petty, mean spirited and nasty when she turned him down for anything more than a kiss.

Posted on Oct 11, 2010 11:56:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 12, 2010 10:19:16 AM PDT
Michigangirl says:
The issue with the wedding ring reminds me of another book. Dolphins for Luck. I can't remember particularly liking the book, but the story was about a girl who fell in love with this guy. He was always trying to get with her, but he was wearing a wedding ring with dolphins on it. The heroine was very upset because she loved him but he was obviously married, hence the wedding ring, and she just couldn't do it. I don't remember if she really did finally have sex with him or not. I do know that it was talking to a third party, after she'd left him, that she finally figured out that he wasn't married. Apparently he was just a moron and wore the ring on his left hand ring finger ...because it fit better there? This brings to mind that apparently you just didn't ask in those days, and how just because there's a ring it doesn't mean the person is really married.

MR said that she was a smart woman therefore she had to have seen the ring and known he was married.

Daniel's assumptions about why she left the room come after he hears from Lydia that nothing happened that night. For all we know, Lydia was going into the bathroom to get the condoms. If he'd really turned her down, she left and he passed out, I don't think his first thoughts upon awakening would be, did I sleep with her? It probably would have been, how big of an idiot am I and what was I thinking, what did I almost do, I'm in such trouble for passing out here. Then her speech about how good he was in bed despite being intoxicated could have floored him. Instead he woke up, wondering if he'd done the deed and had it confirmed by her.

I love Michelle Reid's books, there are very few that I don't care for. I love this book, but..

Her playing with the time line and not giving any definitive answers, using outside people as props, make the story up in the air and open to different interpretations. You can believe that Daniel fell off the path because of stress and the evil other woman leading him on. Even the fact that he got totally trashed was an escapist point. He was too drunk to really be held accountable for what he almost did. *eye roll*

Rachel's friend was probably lying through her teeth because she wasn't really a friend, she was just jealous that Daniel wouldn't have sex with her.

Though his throw away line, when Rachel asked why he didn't, still strikes me every time I read it. Because he didn't want her. Does that mean that he did strike it up with Lydia because he DID want her? That would make the ending, that it just didn't work out, so it would never happen again, make more sense. Daniel didn't have an affair with Rachel's friend because he didn't want her. But he did start up an affair with someone he did want, only to discover that he really didn't want to touch her because she wasn't his wife.

I also agree about the cartoonist.

But Lydia has no reason to care about Rachel and the kids. If she didn't know about them, or if she thought he might be married but obviously not happily if he was seeing her and no one knew anything about his wife, she definitely wouldn't be able to tell he had children from a wedding ring. Rachel and her children are strangers to Lydia and not her issue to deal with. And I don't see why she should care about Daniel at that point. He'd already ditched her, pulled her as his lawyer after she won his big case for him, told her that she couldn't contact him at all, and if she needed to, get the janitor to call before she called herself. Yeah. I wouldn't like him either.

It also never really stated in the book how far they went, or how they got together. I don't see how she would be coming on to him from the start because she wants to be his next wife. It's possible that after their business dinners started turning into dates instead, that yeah, she thought of herself as his next wife. That just makes her a fool because they rarely divorce for the other woman. Then again, maybe she thought when she won his case for him, he'd definitely go for her, since she could do so much for him.

It even makes sense in some way to think that her reasoning is he'd leave his wife for her when she won the case. That's why she took him home that night. In her mind, she won the case, they'd been dating for a while, they'd take it the next step and he'd then ditch his wife for her.

It doesn't really make her evil, just sad.

Now I do believe the cartoonist is evil just for making her walk home in the middle of the night in the middle of winter. I kept thinking of her getting mugged, raped and left to freeze to death because he was upset that she didn't want to have an affair with him.

ETA. I also wasn't very happy that Daniel decided to leave her at the party because he had hurt feelings. The idea being that he's always taken care of her so he's making her stand up on her own two feet, but there's a time and a place for everything, and that was not the right time.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 12, 2010 10:18:58 AM PDT
Books&Wine says:
If you do ever read A Perfect Marriage, you'll definitely be telling your husband that you love him; maybe even trying to steal him away for a little afternoon delight!

An excellent book where the H doesn't just grovel for a few pages, but spends months patiently proving to the h that he is a changed man and one worthy of her trust and love is Reason to Believe by Kathleen Eagle. It's a beautiful story of redemption.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 12, 2010 10:25:02 AM PDT
Books&Wine says:
As usual, you've cut to the quick of it with a great analysis.

Posted on Oct 12, 2010 11:54:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 12, 2010 11:56:46 AM PDT
Reader says:
B & W:
Are either of those books cheating stories? I could stand to read TUB only because the story was more about his redemption than the actual cheating.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2010 8:02:25 AM PDT
Reader in NJ says:
Double D, The H in "Gold Ring of Betrayal" did not cheat. There was no OW in the story. The woman he "used" to make the h jealous was his cousin's fiancee. He even said that he "tried" but couldn't be with other women -- implying he went out with them but when it came to it didn't/couldn't do anything with them. Of course you are entitiled to your opinion. However, according to MR her heroes do not cheat (though you could argue about "The Ultimate Betrayal" since at the least it was an emotional betrayal).

As for "The Arabian Love Child" they were not married. His brother/cousin lied to him. The H had no reason to believe that he and the h would ever be together again. His being with other women isn't cheating.

Posted on Oct 13, 2010 12:16:02 PM PDT
"Outlaw Viking" by Sandra Hill. Time travel. Hero treats heroine according to his time during the first part of the book, I can't remember but they are captured at court and the hero is thrown in jail and is shown how the heroine is apparently consorting with his archenemy. He is let free and somehow the heroine ends up in his room while he is with a servant who has cause some trouble between them before. Of course nothing is as it seems. Hero has to grovel mightly to convince heroine to stay with him.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2010 2:28:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 13, 2010 9:32:49 PM PDT
Books&Wine says:
Both are cheater stories and are excellent books. But very different.
A Perfect Marriage is one of the most emotional, angst ridden books I've read. You see and feel the affair to come like a wreck you can't stop. You're in the scene when the infidelity is revealed. But through the skill of the writer, you rejoice with the h/H as they confront what went wrong and work their way back to each other.

In Reason to Believe, the story picks up after the cheating has occured and the h/H are separated. It's a beautiful tale of redemption. The H accepts blame and spends months, years, becoming the person that his wife deserves, the person he was meant to be. All of actions, his quiet, gentle leadership, and compassion on a long winter horseride that commemorates Wounded Knee shows how much he's changed. This book is an excellent of 'show, don't tell.' Reason to Believe is all about the redemption.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2010 3:51:42 PM PDT
Michigangirl says:
The hero in A Question of Pride by Michelle Reid cheated. Though you can say, he never had sex with the woman, but he was dating someone else while he was with the heroine. He'd just started dating another woman at the beginning of the book, he'd been with the heroine for a while, he had two dates with the other woman and a third one lined up. The other woman wound up going out of the country for her job and canceling the last date, which is when the heroine found out about it. The hero left for a week to visit his mother, when he came back he found out the heroine quit her job and was pregnant with his baby.

At the end he says that he didn't do anything because he couldn't, but it wasn't for lack of trying. There also wasn't a chance to see if he would have kept going since he found out that she was pregnant and it went from there.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2010 5:12:27 PM PDT
Reader in NJ says:
Michigangirl, I agree with you that the H in "A Question of Pride" dated the OW a few times. However, he didn't do anything. He was scared of his feelings for the h. He wanted to see if he could feel anything for another woman before he accepted the feelings that he had for the h. Do I agree with his actions, No. Do I consider what he did cheating, No. There was no physical interaction between him and the OW. I don't condone what he did but I can understand why he did it. If he was confused and scared of his feelings isn't it better that he found out before they were married instead of later? When he said that "he couldn't" I took it to mean that even though he went with the OW and took her to dinner he didn't do anything with her -- he didn't want her physically. I don't think that he actually took her to bed and couldn't perform.

Posted on Oct 13, 2010 7:01:55 PM PDT
Reader says:
It seems like the MR have that discussion. The H cheated, no he didn't, the OW is evil, no she is was also decived by the H, and so on. :)

Posted on Oct 13, 2010 11:28:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 13, 2010 11:29:34 PM PDT
belen says:
In "A Question of Pride", was he sorry? Did he grovel? Him dating another that considered emotional cheating??

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2010 7:06:29 AM PDT
Reader in NJ says:
Belen, In "A Question of Pride" the h was not a wimp. The H had to work to get her back. I don't know if I would call it emotional cheating, he took the OW out to dinenr twice. They H and OW didn't spend enough time together to get emotionally involved. His judgement was poor, he should never have taken out the OW to dinner at all. But he paid for that mistake. The h didn't want to take him back. It was only because of meddling on the part of her step father that she realized that the H truly loved her, forgave him and they had a HEA. As is typical of MR's books --there was a lot of emotion/angst.

Posted on Oct 14, 2010 11:19:29 AM PDT
Michigangirl says:
Belen, I consider it about as emotional cheating as the hubby that was found on his wedding day directly after the wedding making out with his ex, because she needed that kiss to help her after he ditched her. It was more about him than about anyone else. He didn't like that sometimes he really connected emotionally with the heroine through sex and then he'd back off.

The book starts right after one such incident, the heroine has just found out she's pregnant and is in shock and doesn't know how to take it or what she should do at that point. The hero tells her he's got a business dinner that night, but later that night he stops out to her house and makes some excuses about why his business dinner ended so soon. He claims it was because 'they didn't know what they wanted'.

I actually thought he just used it as an excuse to not see the heroine and not that he was with the other girl, but the heroine confronts him about this later and he doesn't deny it. When the heroine tells him she's on her so many words, he decides to cancel their date for the weekend and takes the tickets she bought and takes his new girlfriend. He also arranges another date for the last night he'll be in town before he goes to visit his mother. This is the date that the other woman calls the office, which she informs the heroine he'd told her not to do, but she needed to tell him that she wouldn't be able to make the date since she had to go out of the country for work. And she informs the heroine that she'd been with him to the theatre over the weekend.

This is when the heroine actually puts two and two together.

Supposedly the hero spent the week at his mother's coming to terms with his feelings for the heroine etc, but when he comes back and finds out she's pregnant and actually calms down, his only expression of feeling is that he's fond of her. He also tells her that he's been faithful to her and that's when she confesses to knowing about the other woman.

She also lets out her feelings on the fact that he came to her for sex that night after the other woman wouldn't sleep with him, which made her feel pretty ill, and the fact that he used HER tickets to take another woman out.

He says that she doesn't understand and she'll be sorry when she finds out. His theory being that he was only using the other woman to find out if his feelings for the heroine were transferable to someone else so it was okay that he did it.

His confession at the end that nothing happens is pretty much his allowance that he understands that he hurt her when he did it. Considering how emotionally stunted he was, that was definitely something.
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