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The Real Upcoming Space Wars?


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Posted on Oct 15, 2009 2:00:42 AM PDT
Yog-Sothoth says:
My reference to the "Monolith" was in fact referring to the movie "2001: A Space Odessey" which, in turn was based on the Clarke novel. No novel - hence no monolith. Backward logic, indeed, but I had to think of something!

I see no problem with calling Marilyn on her facts, and even some good-natured sarcasm and ribbing, but in some posts, I have seen what amounts to intellectual invisceration. I guess what I'm saying is I've got not problem calling someone "silly" or "outrageous" or even "ridiculous". I do object when it gets personal, and instead of IDEAS being "silly", the POSTER now becomes "stupid", "idiotic", or a "moron". The topic turns from fun and interesting to painful and embarrassing.

As this IS the "Science Fiction" Forum, I don't see why any "flights of fancy" can't be discussed. Would you also object to discussions of the "possibility" of hobbits, elves, and fairies on the "Fantasy" Forum?

Now, if the poster with the outlandish ideas is NOT willing to admit the info they have posted is unproven, or even questionable (as are ANY unsubstatiated "facts"), then the gloves can come off . . .

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2009 2:17:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 15, 2009 2:18:22 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
LBOM,

The problem is that whilst this is an sf thread, Marilyn instead of referring to fiction, is attempting to utilize misunderstood or mis-reported real research to support her beliefs. Her belief as stated on other threads is that there are multiple species of alien zipping around Earth, that they have modified early humans and gifted and manipulated human civilizations, are interacting with human governments now, and that the military of various nations is attempting to retro-engineer alien tech to obtain antigravity and powerful weaponry. Any distorted news item or article is then used as 'evidence' of this belief. On other threads, countering Marilyn's misunderstandings has resulted in name calling and her declaring on other threads that the posters who counter her beliefs are 'disinformation agents' of the conspiracy to hide the 'truth' or 'hybrid aliens' attempting to silence the 'truth'. It's quite bizarre.

So far, on this thread she has behaved.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2009 3:29:57 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2009 9:18:16 PM PST
To Ronald Craig:
Admittedly, Marilyn Martin is not a scientist or engineer, but then she never claimed to be. Also, her credulity might be high, particularly in certain areas. However, participation in this or any other forum is NOT limited to those with at least a bachelor's degree in the physical or biological sciences.

It seems to me, sir, that you are conducting a vendetta against Ms. Martin. If and when Ms. Martin posts an item that is contrary to physical laws as they are currently understood, I'm sure that there are many persons in the forum who have the background and the willingness to instantly, and politely, correct her. This not only helps to educate Ms. Martin, but other people in the forum, as well. It even helps the person who's doing the correcting because, because in order to present a cogent analysis, one must make sure that one's ducks are all in a row, as it were.

Also, the only way that it will be possible to combat the massive American popular scientific and technological illiteracy is to battle it out in the "marketplace of ideas." This does NOT involve consigning some persons to an intellectual Coventry.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2009 3:58:40 PM PDT
To LBOM:
The short story, "The Sentinal," upon which the movie, "2001: A Space Odyssey" was based, was first written in 1948 and was first published in 1951. The novel, "2001: A Space Odyssey," to which you refer, was merely a novelization of the movie, and was published at the same time that the movie was released, in July of 1968.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sentinel_(short_story)

Posted on Oct 16, 2009 7:30:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 16, 2009 9:15:20 AM PDT
To anyone still following this thread, (and willing to slog thru all the shrill and hysterical debunkers), below is a link to a very interesting site.

http://space.au.af.mil/doctrine.htm

This is the website for the "National Space Studies Center - Law, Doctrine and Policy". There are multiple policies listed, including each military branch's separate guidelines for their conduct in space. There is also the following document, that perhaps prompted the 2006 U.S. National Space Policy:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cadre/ari_2004-01.pdf

This 2004 pdf Research Paper is titled "The International Development of Space and Its Impact on U.S. National Space Policy".

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2009 10:37:19 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"and willing to slog thru all the shrill and hysterical debunkers"

Marilyn's back on form.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2009 11:11:44 AM PDT
Ronald Craig says:
Sorry, Walter, but where do you see any indication that Marilyn has any intention of letting anyone educate her on anything? Unless you agree with her and congratulate her on retrieving yet another fascinating tidbit of fringe nonsense, she soon labels you a "shrill and hysterical debunker" or worse. (Did you know that M. Helsdon is actually an alien-human hybrid in the pay of mysterious organizations dedicated to keeping the public in the dark? :D )

In my opinion, Marilyn consigned herself to small dark place long ago.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2009 11:18:15 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
Ronaldzilla,

"Did you know that M. Helsdon is actually an alien-human hybrid in the pay of mysterious organizations dedicated to keeping the public in the dark?"

So mysterious they haven't paid me...

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2009 8:15:05 PM PDT
Ronald Craig says:
Aye, life is an enigma wrapped in a mystery. And smothered in special sauce.

(Wow ... at long last I have achieved 'zillahood! My road stops here. :D )

Posted on Oct 30, 2009 9:00:35 AM PDT
To anyone still interested in this thread, I found an (admittedly) religious-fringe site with some very interesting articles. Based on my belief that kernels of truth can pop up on even on fringe sites, you may want to check these articles out:

http://100777.com/node/991 - "Air Force Pursuing Anti-matter Weapons"

http://100777.com/node/1682 - "New Battlefields for a New World"

http://100777.com/node/1245 - "If You Build It, They Will Kill"

Posted on Oct 30, 2009 10:38:55 AM PDT
Esgaldil says:
Martin - I am interested in this thread, and I am trying to understand what you are saying, but I honestly don't know what you are trying to say by linking to these three articles. I do appreciate you providing links, thank you for that.

The first article is not from any fringe site - it is an article found in the San Francisco Chronicle in 2004, with a presumably accurate assessment of the then-current state of weaponizing antimatter. The second article comes from RaidersNewsNetwork (which seems to have an apocalyptic theme) and warns vaguely that China has scientists who could someday invent something terrible, like an EMP. The third article is from a leftist/pacifist journalist writing for TomDispatch, and basically attacks the idea of U.S. military research into new anti-personnel (crowd-control) weapons - Military-grade Tasers, essentially. Since it is now three years since that article was written, you can now find more and better information on Active Denial Systems and Pulsed Energy Projectiles in Wikipedia than in that article.

I don't feel like I contribute much if all I do is tell the poster of links what those articles actually say, but I haven't seen much evidence that Martin is reading and understanding these articles before she decides that they contribute so much to the discussion that the rest of us should read them. What is the subject of these discussion, and how do these three articles advance that discussion? Yes, there has been, is, and will be military research. Other than that generic theme, what do these articles contribute? What kernel of truth can be found browsing these articles that could not be gleaned equally well from daydreaming?

Posted on Oct 30, 2009 11:33:43 AM PDT
Thanks for posting, Esgaldil.

Some of this information was new to me, like weaponizing anti-matter. And I have no problem posting older articles since, if this controversial research is continuing and on-going, there wouldn't/won't be any more discussion of it allowed in the media, as more current or updated news.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 30, 2009 12:19:31 PM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"Some of this information was new to me, like weaponizing anti-matter."

It is incredibly expensive to generate antimatter, and likely to remain so for a long time to come. In Peter F. Hamilton 'Night's Dawn Trilogy' antimatter generation utilizes a great of solar energy with the factories positioned very close to a star. Whilst it may be feasible to harvest natural antimatter it would again take a lot of time and effort to gather enough to be useful.

"And I have no problem posting older articles since, if this controversial research is continuing and on-going, there wouldn't/won't be any more discussion of it allowed in the media, as more current or updated news."

There's a considerable quantity of real reporting out there; magazines such as Scientific American and New Scientist have featured articles, without having to rely on conspiracy sites.

Posted on Oct 30, 2009 8:02:03 PM PDT
Esgaldil says:
Martin - I don't understand the reasoning. If the research is ongoing, it will be reported on in the present and the future the same way it was reported on in the past. Why would older articles be more trustworthy?

My larger point was not that weaponizing anti-matter is boring or old-fashioned, but that it has nothing to do with the 59 previous comments in this thread. I'd love to know how you think these news articles relate to each other specifically and in what way they support whatever broader point you are trying to express. It's very difficult for me to know right now why linking to those three articles advanced this thread. It's your subject that I'm trying to stay on, and I wish you'd say something about it.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2009 12:02:24 AM PDT
Ronald Craig says:
Careful, Esgaldil, you're treading dangerously close to getting no more "Thanks for posting!" messages from Marilyn! And keep pressing it and you'll find yourself labelled an alien-human hybrid in the pay of secret organizations trying to keep the truth hidden! :D

Marilyn's point about the old articles is that any reportage is probably now being censored if the research continues and shows promise. Gov't "black ops", secretive bureaus, hush hush, knowharramean?

Seriously, when are people going to get it that she really believes all this stuff she posts?!

Anyway, as long as people keep posting synopses of the articles she links to for her, she's never going to do the work herself.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2009 3:35:57 AM PDT
Pw Johnson says:
My dear Zack G.C. Certain things exist whether you believe in them or not

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2009 6:07:54 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"Certain things exist whether you believe in them or not"

Tinkerbell is dead. 9-)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2009 8:08:19 AM PDT
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Posted on Oct 31, 2009 7:48:26 PM PDT
Esgaldil says:
I certainly agree that government security prevents a great deal of information from being revealed, especially current military research. I don't agree that the best alternative is to read every randomly found article on the internet. You may be finding kernels of truth, but they have all the nutritional value of popcorn. There is so much that can be learned, right here, right now, about, for example, antimatter research, that it seems like a sad waste of effort to compile so many unrelated articles that don't add up to anything.

In the first page of this thread it seemed as though there was an idea - to the extent that I understand what has been written, the subject seemed to be the reverse engineering of alien technologies by the United States, Russia, and China. Since then, it seems as though the title of the thread has taken over the content and any random reference to military technology breakthroughs that either have been made in the last ten years or might be made in the next thousand years is equally deserving of consideration.

I'm not trying to initiate or encourage a "stupid back-and-forth", but I do believe that one of the best ways to explore ideas is with discussion - a mutual and respectful exchange of questions and answers, rather than the horrifying idea of "agreeing to disagree" as though the truth doesn't matter.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2009 2:43:51 AM PST
Ronald Craig says:
"Tinkerbell is dead."

Nonsense, man! She's alive and well and posting here. Started this thread, as a matter of fact!

OK, so since you work the hardest at debunking, your new code name will be PestDuo1. I shall be content with PestDuo2. :)

Posting the URL of ANY article she can grab ... does that mean she reads and tries to understand them, though?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2009 7:01:05 AM PST
M. Helsdon says:
Ronald,

"OK, so since you work the hardest at debunking, your new code name will be PestDuo1. I shall be content with PestDuo2. :)"

It's not work, more a calling.

But... It's becoming a bit repetitive: Marilyn still doesn't understand the difference between magnetic levitation and 'antigravity' and on the Aliens thread pointing out discrepances between the various 'authorities' cited simply results in the generation of wilder and wilder paranoid conspiracy theories.

Remember: this thread has its basis in Marilyn's belief that alien tech is being retro-engineered by Earth governments to provide new weapons, so debunking simply feeds the conspiracy theory by suggesting to the believer that what they believe is true and being hidden.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2009 8:36:09 AM PST
Hi Esgaldil!

Thanks again for the intelligent (non-hysterical or personal-attack) post.

Since this thread is about "futuristic weaponry", I thought I'd research "current or near future weaponry/threats" in the highly respected Christian Science Monitor. No Black Projects or super-secret leaks. But these articles are current, and give a good idea of the direction that "futuristic weaponry" is headed.

The main themes seem to be: real or potential threats to satellites; new nuclear uses that may threaten Nuclear Proliferation Treaties; the to-be-watched superpower alliances between Russia and China; and being ready for Others.

http://features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/03/18/russia-plans-massive-military-investment/ (RUSSIA PLANS MASSIVE MILITARY INVESTMENT)

http://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2008/08/27/will-lasers-brighten-nuclears-future/ (WILL LASERS BRIGHTEN NUCLEAR'S FUTURE?)

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/04/24/reagon-and-gorbzchev-agreed-to-fight-ufos/ (REAGON AND GORBACHEV AGREED TO FIGHT UFOS) OK, laugh if you want. But if world leaders with their top-secret briefings are concerned about this, shouldn't we be too?

Posted on Nov 1, 2009 12:40:30 PM PST
Zack G.C. says:
P.W. Johnson: It wouldn't be hard to convert me into a believer. All I would need is real, firm evidence (not some blurry photo).

Since I doubt you can give that to me, I ask: how do YOU know these "certain things" exist?
Maybe you're stowing E.T. in your basement? (Don't let the Gov Men know. They'll poke him with needles and make him eat funny things.)

Posted on Nov 1, 2009 2:21:05 PM PST
test

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2009 3:32:49 PM PST
Doug says:
Yeah, me too,,,, much as I would like to see the hardware and the bodies from Roswell,,,, I'm beginning to think that whole thing was just a load of crap to cover our exploration and upgrading of German V-2 technology. Thank You Again, Werner Von Braun~!~!
The ONE point that I cannot get around is the fact that there were hundreds of people involved at Roswell, and in the ensuing time period, the people connected to any cover-up must number in the thousands. So far,,, NOBODY has decided to risk the governments displeasure and come forward with some smuggled out concrete evidence, which I find hard to believe, given the basic nature of humanity, and the growing popularity of becoming a whistle blower.
Nah -- like Mulder, I want to believe, but, there just ain't that much left to believe in, except for the enginuity of the American people to come up with amazing inventions, independently of Alien assistance.
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Discussion in:  Science Fiction forum
Participants:  57
Total posts:  1114
Initial post:  Oct 8, 2009
Latest post:  Nov 5, 2013

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