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Out of Africa flaws


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Initial post: Dec 30, 2012 9:57:44 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Oct 6, 2013 8:57:13 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 12:08:44 PM PST
interesting
but flawed analysis
although some good insights
still inadequite to prove your claim

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 12:31:23 PM PST
noman says:
You do not provide proper citation. For example, you should have provided:

Science 335, 657 (2012);
Michael Cysouw, et al.
Model of Language Expansion from Africa''
Comment on ''Phonemic Diversity Supports a Serial Founder Effect

http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1094595:11/component/escidoc:1357545/Cysouw_et_al_2012_Comment_Science.pdf

You don't identify "Bakshi" but a search locates:
Akhil Bakshi,(Gurgaon, India)
submitted: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:57:05 +0530
Akhil Bakshi
Author, Explorer, Film-maker
"Basecamp"
972, Sector 17
Gurgaon - 122001 INDIA

phones: 91/124-234-2161
91/124-234-1228
email: akhilbakshi@vsnl.com..."

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/area/idsas/BAKSHI,Akhil.htm

If this is your "source" he has no publications or credentials in any applicable field.

Frankly your entire post is without any merit, if for no other reason you provide no citations and the sources that are located do nothing to support your dubious "thesis".

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 12:54:23 PM PST
I challenge some of your assertions.

1. What is the evidence for your assertion that it takes at least 20,000 years for 2 sister languages to lose all semblance of relationship? How could anyone possibly know this given that written records of language only go back a few thousand years?

2. On what basis do you claim that if all languages have a common origin, it would had to have been millions of years ago?

3. There is certainly genetic evidence for an origin of H. sapiens in Africa, based on mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome DNA, and the International HapMap Project. You offer one quote from one individual to support your claim that "nothing could be farther from the truth" that genetics supports OOA.

4. Geographical conditions at earlier times in modern man's history have been much different than what they are now. For example, the Sahara has periodically been much wetter, and sea levels much lower. The quote you offer is just one person's opinion based on no actual data.

5. You "see" no archaeological evidence? That doesn't mean there isn't any.

From Wikipedia article "Recent African origin of modern humans":

Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 250,000 years ago. The trend in cranial expansion and the acheulean elaboration of stone tool technologies which occurred between 400,000 years ago and the second interglacial period in the Middle Pleistocene (around 250,000 years ago) provide evidence for a transition from H. erectus to H. sapiens.[29] In the Recent African Origin (RAO) scenario, migration within and out of Africa eventually replaced the earlier dispersed H. erectus.

Homo sapiens idaltu, found at site Middle Awash in Ethiopia, lived about 160,000 years ago.[30] It is the oldest known anatomically modern human and classified as an extinct subspecies.[31] Fossils of early Homo sapiens were found in Qafzeh cave in Israel and have been dated to 80,000 to 100,000 years ago. However these humans seem to have either become extinct or retreated back to Africa 70,000 to 80,000 years ago, possibly replaced by south bound Neanderthals escaping the colder regions of ice age Europe.[32] Hua Liu & al. analyzing autosomal microsatellite markers dates to c. 56,000±5,700 years ago mtDNA evidence. He interprets the paleontological fossil of early modern human from Qafzeh cave as an isolated early offshoot that retracted back to Africa.[33]

All other fossils of fully modern humans outside Africa have been dated to more recent times. The oldest well dated fossils found outside Africa are from Lake Mungo, Australia, and have been dated to about 42,000 years ago.[34][35] The Tianyuan cave remains in Liujiang region China have a probable date range between 38,000 and 42,000 years ago. They are most similar in morphology to Minatogawa Man, modern humans dated between 17,000 and 19,000 years ago and found on Okinawa Island, Japan.[36][37] However, others have dated Liujang Man to 111,000 to 139,000 years before the present.[38]

6. Your final comments that OOA is only accepted out of political correctness suggests an ulterior motive for your comments. What, pray tell, are the racial trait differences/origins you believe are being downplayed?

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 1:32:46 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Nov 19, 2013 12:33:23 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:38:06 PM PST
Cliff Sedge says:
'it trys to downplay racial trait differences/origins.'

Whereas you would like to accentuate those racial differences?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:47:58 PM PST
Bingo!

The ulterior motive!

Now let's try to guess what this eminent scientific leader believes about the relative abilities of these three species.

And let's let him explain how different species can be completely compatible as far as interbreeding is concerned.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:49:41 PM PST
Cliff Sedge says:
I found this gem. Shows you what people do with these kinds of theories:

'Rael, founder and leader of the International Raelian Movement, today expressed his support for Bakshi, saying the scientist has provided more confirmation of information Rael was given almost 40 years ago. According to that information, Earth's seven races were created by scientists from another planet.'

Earth's seven races were created by scientists from another planet.... I had to double-take when I saw it.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:54:39 PM PST
Oy.

A lot of this c**p is overtly racist, like the nonsense spouted by Elijah Muhammad and his opposite, Richard Butler.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:03:21 PM PST
Cliff Sedge says:
True. This guy is Indian.

It wouldn't surprise me if the fundamental brotherhood of mankind suggested by the OOA theory would interfere with the caste system.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:05:39 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 4, 2013 7:15:55 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:09:52 PM PST
Cliff Sedge says:
'So suddenly people started wandering thousands of miles randomly?'

If the advances in mental capacity allowed the population to outstrip resources or if there was a negative change in the environment, there'd be a push factor for any surplus population.

They wouldn't decide to travel for thousands of miles. They'd just head for better pastures until the population grew too big in that new location again. The spread of mankind took many many generations until they'd reached South America, for instance.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:19:37 PM PST
And you are willing to entertain such gross nonsense?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:19:51 PM PST
1. You cite as your only evidence to support your claims about language a single quote from 1962 which simply repeats your claim without providing any additional substantiation.

2. You again simply repeat your original assertion about the diversity of modern languages requiring much more than 200,000 years to develop, without providing any additional substantiation.

3. Comparison of genetic sequences among different human populations indicates ancestry relationships. I.e., sequence B is descended from sequence A, therefore sequence A preceded sequence B. In the case of mitochondrial DNA, the original ancestral sequence of all human mitochondrial DNA sequences is found in populations in Africa. This is the single strongest piece of evidence that all modern humans trace their ancestry to Africa, but by no means the only such evidence.

4. Why do you argue that modern humans "suddenly" started wandering? Homo erectus remains are also widespread, so wandering is hardly a new phenomenon among hominids. One can reverse the question: why would they have wanted to remain in one place? The very nature of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle requires periodic movement as one area temporarily becomes depleted. And there were no political boundaries to stop migrations.

5. If you believe you have evidence that the earliest dated AMH are from Europe, please provide it.

6. If what you say is true, then in what way do you think racial traits need to be more emphasized?

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 2:25:19 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Oct 6, 2013 8:57:31 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:26:25 PM PST
tom kriske says:
Do at least make some attempt to resuscitate your otherwise weakened intellect and read

The First Word [The Search for the Origins of Language] by Christine Kenneally.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:26:34 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 2:33:25 PM PST
Regarding Carleton Coon and "The Origin of Races":

The book asserted that the human species divided into five races before it had evolved into Homo sapiens. Further, he suggested that the races evolved into Homo sapiens at different times. It was not well received.[7] The field of anthropology was moving rapidly from theories of race typology, and The Origin of Races was widely castigated by his peers in anthropology as supporting racist ideas with outmoded theory and notions which had long since been repudiated by modern science. One of his harshest critics, Theodore Dobzhansky, scorned it as providing "grist for racist mills".[8]

In his 1962 book, The Origin of Races, Coon theorized that some races reached the Homo sapiens stage in evolution before others, resulting in the higher degree of civilization among some races.[18] He had continued his theory of five races. He considered both what he called the Mongoloid race and the Caucasoid race had individuals who had adapted to crowding through evolution of the endocrine system, which made them more successful in the modern world of civilization. This can be found on pages 108-109 of The Origin of Races. In his book Coon contrasted a picture of an Indigenous Australian with one of a Chinese professor. His caption "The Alpha and the Omega" was used to demonstrate his research that brain size was positively correlated with intelligence.

"Wherever Homo arose, and Africa is at present the most likely continent, he soon dispersed, in a very primitive form, throughout the warm regions of the Old World....If Africa was the cradle of mankind, it was only an indifferent kindergarten. Europe and Asia were our principal schools."

By this he meant that the Caucasoid and Mongoloid races had evolved more in their separate areas after they had left Africa in a primitive form. He also believed, "The earliest Homo sapiens known, as represented by several examples from Europe and Africa, was an ancestral long-headed white man of short stature and moderately great brain size." Further, he wrote, "The negro group probably evolved parallel to the white strain." (The Races of Europe, Chapter II).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleton_S._Coon

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:28:33 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 2:31:30 PM PST
More on Carleton Coon:

In 2001 John P. Jackson, Jr. researched Coon's papers in order to review the controversy around the reception of The Origin of Races, stating in the article abstract:

"Segregationists in the United States used Coon's work as proof that African Americans were "junior" to white Americans, and thus unfit for full participation in American society. The paper examines the interactions among Coon, segregationist Carleton Putnam, geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky, and anthropologist Sherwood Washburn. The paper concludes that Coon actively aided the segregationist cause in violation of his own standards for scientific objectivity.[29]"

Jackson found in the archived Coon papers records of repeated efforts by Coon to aid Putnam's efforts to provide intellectual support to the ongoing resistance to racial integration, while cautioning Putnam against statements that could identify Coon as an active ally. (Jackson also noted that both men had become aware that they had American-Revolutionary Gen. Israel Putnam as a common ancestor, making them (at least distant) cousins, but Jackson indicated neither when either learned of the family relationship nor whether they had a more recent common ancestor.)[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleton_S._Coon

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:43:31 PM PST
noman says:
reported for racist hate speech in violation of TOS. Gross ignorance, however, does not appear to be a violation. ~_+

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:48:20 PM PST
Bingo again! You are a good old-fashioned racist. Surprise surprise!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:21:48 PM PST
John Donohue says:
BookGremlin says:

Put these two together:
>>2. The time needed for language divergence is much more if they had a single origin than the Out of Africa scenario allows. This has been shown by Coon and others. If languages do have a common origin, much more time is needed than the 200-100k OOA allows. <<

AND

>>3. Its impossible to date DNA. The molecular clock hypothesis rests entirely on the assumption mutation rates are constant.<<

So you can date language development (based on what?) but you cannot date DNA?

Certainly a human relative left Africa about a million years ago -- Homo Erectus/Homo Ergaster and some of them became Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Heidelbergensis but these are not on a direct line to the human beings who left Africa about 150,000 years ago.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:22:56 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 3:23:12 PM PST
Excellent point. Wish I'd noticed it.

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 4:12:37 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 4:22:21 PM PST
"Why would people suddenly leave to travel thousands of miles across life threatening terrain?" Probably more like hundreds of miles at most in a generation, probably to try to survive.

Why on earth do people live in freezing Russia and Minnesota? Lifeless harsh empty Oklahoma and Somalia? Disease ridden tropical habitats with little usable resources? Why do wolves live in the Artic region? Finding new territory, new access to food, avoiding conflict.

"wars had not graduated to more than a bar room brawl"... somebody seriously wrote that? Killing, rape, slavery have probably always been around.

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 5:05:14 PM PST
Ehkzu says:
This is the Theory Jack built.
This is the Flaw
That lay in the Theory Jack built.
This is the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Cybernetics and Stuff
That covered Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the button to Start the Machine
To make with the Cybernetics and Stuff
To cover Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Space Child with Brow Serene
Who Pushed the Button to Start the Machine
That made with the Cybernetics and Stuff
Without Confusion, exposing the Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
And, shredding the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
Wrecked the Summary
Based on Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
And Demolished the Theory that Jack built.

--The Space Child's Mother Goose

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 5:20:59 PM PST
" You offer one quote from one individual to support your claim that "nothing could be farther from the truth" that genetics supports OOA."

Seeing as how John Hawkes runs a blogsite specifically on issues of evolutionary anthropology, my guess is that this is some sort of out of context quote mine

http://johnhawks.net/weblog
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Discussion in:  Science forum
Participants:  37
Total posts:  698
Initial post:  Dec 30, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 16, 2013

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