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Even if ID is true- so what?


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Initial post: Dec 13, 2012 3:50:18 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 13, 2012 4:15:54 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
It seems that alot of ID is interested in proving an intelligent designer- it seems with the easy confidence that if proven true, that designer will turn out to be the Biblical God.

But who said? We still wouldn't know the identity or real agendas of this designer. Could it be Allah instead? Or Vishnu? Or Quetzlcoatl? Could it have been a committee of gods? Could it have been an inexperienced child God that started it, realized it was just turning into a mess, crumpled it and threw it aside, then went on to create better universes (that would certainly explain alot of the mess in the world today)?

And what does all this mean in terms of ethics? Does it mean we must ban gay marriage? Or does it mean all women should cover their face with a burqa?

And how do we know the real agendas of this designer? Are we just sheep being fattened up for the slaughter? Who said the intentions of this designer are entirely benign? Could he just be a mischievous god having fun at our expense?

Posted on Dec 13, 2012 4:23:48 PM PST
Rev. Otter says:
or, multiple designers

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2004/09/introduction-to.html

Posted on Dec 13, 2012 5:17:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2012 2:15:05 PM PST
Let us Creationists help out.

I mean its obvious God created everything. The universe, the first life, the works
Well, maybe it wasnt so obvious back in olden times, the 1960's. Then people weren't sure. Even some smart people!

The New Frontier, Che, Miller-Urey, Carl Sagan, the Beatles, Leonard Bernstein, Freud,
They thought back then you could explain this stuff and you didnt never need no God. Kid you not!
But guys, dont laugh, it was primative back then.
They was trying hard but they was ignorant.

Anyhow, its the 21st centruy fellas.
Nowadays, Peer Reviewed Science its got no alternatives guys, so Creationism its the ballgame..

Okay then. But Allah, them other Gods? Sorry fellas. No offense but no cigar neither.
No credible witnessed miracles, like there was with Jesus.
Risin from the dead, Curin them lepers, and best of all guys, turning water into wine fellas.

I mean, look at President Obama.
A brilliant intellectual, a Harvard legal scholar, an expert in logic and evidence.
He read up on them miracles, and he said "Ahem, the evidence its compelling",
and he became a Christian.

President Obama! And guys, he's articulate!. What more can you ask for?

Posted on Dec 13, 2012 5:39:55 PM PST
Tero says:
>>And what does all this mean in terms of ethics?<<

Nothing.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 5:50:42 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 13, 2012 5:51:00 PM PST
CH: I mean, look at President Obama.
A brilliant intellectual, a Harvard legal scholar, an expert in logic and evidence.
He read up on them miracles, and he said "Ahem, the evidence its compelling",
and he became a Christian.

TSNTPW: Er, you mean the evidence was compelling if he was going to be a successful politician.
... and possibly Michelle required it, as well.

But the majority of research scientists are atheists, I read somewhere once. So no banana.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 5:54:18 PM PST
RO: or, multiple designers

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2004/09/introduction-to.html

TSNTWP: That was great!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 6:07:54 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
No one performed witnessed miracles like Jesus?

The baby Krishna once danced on the head of a poisonous snake, saving the village from its attack. Once his mom went to clean around his mouth after he had eaten, and saw the whole universe there.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 6:12:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 13, 2012 6:13:59 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Also, Apollonius of Tyana performed many miracles, and then, centuries later, so did St. Germain, who was called the "Wonderman of Europe".

Then there were Isis healing the sick, Aesclepius raising the dead, Dionysus turning water into wine, Poseidon walking on water. You get the idea.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2012 6:57:07 AM PST
Christopher: President Obama! And guys, he's articulate!. What more can you ask for?

...that you should try and emulate him, Christopher? (May I call you *Toff*?)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:19:13 PM PST
barbW says:
The ID idea sweeps away the human personality cults and the god-man beliefs. It's so much more sensible than traditional human guesses from thousands of years ago.

It satisfies the human need to explain every detail in terms of intelligent intentions instead of chance.

If it just replaced the superstitious feedback mechanisms of the popular religious clubs that have become so prevalent in our everyday lives, on every street corner, on so many cable channels.... it would be a worthy effort scientists could embrace (in this war on science).

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 9:36:34 PM PST
Re OP: "So what" -- indeed. Since the ID thesis cannot predict anything (a designer could have designed anything, in any manner whatever), the idea is simply a waste of time.

Posted on Dec 17, 2012 6:42:05 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 17, 2012 6:55:59 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 9:09:52 AM PST
noman says:
Christopher Haynes says:"Us Creationists we had to laugh over this one:"
** "...the Westboro Baptist Church,...announcement to picket outside Sandy Hook Elementary School in wake of the recent tragedy..."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/12/anonymous-sets-sights-on-an-old-enemy-the-westboro-baptist-church/

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 12:43:46 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 1:37:25 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
How has this idea been "shown" to be true? And what does it predict? What could possibly ever happen that cannot be explained with "God did it"?

It seems like the more science advances, the less need there seems to be for appeal to intelligent design.

The Grand Design

Unless, of course, there are new ideas since this book was written that I don't know about. If so, please give us some sources.

And, like I asked before, even if true, so what? Does that somehow help you decide what to do about the latest hot-button social or fiscal policy questions? Or is this God of yours just a God that dictates your latest personal opinions and cultural biases to the rest of us?

If so, I can see why such an idea could be so appealing. This God has nothing to do with science. It has everything to do with power, social control, and being a very powerful tool of exploitation. That is a very powerful God indeed.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 1:23:08 PM PST
barbW says:
if it spurs scientifically-curious folks to think about ultimate origins it's not a waste of time.

if it spurs religionist folks to think about ultimate origins it's not a waste of time.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 1:57:38 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 2:03:08 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
Scientifically-curious folks don't need it to think about origins. To them, it is a scientific question like many others. So for them, it is a waste of time.

The religionists (or at least the smart ones) like it only because it can act as a very powerful tool of social control. There is nothing in it there they need to think about, because it is not a scientific question. So for them, not only is it a waste of time, but a rather dangerous tool they have used very effectively in the past. So in their hands, not only is it not useful (for the rest of us), but quite dangerous. We might all be better off disarming them of this traditionally highly effective, powerful and dangerous tool of social control.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 2:06:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 3:07:12 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 3:08:58 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
OK, OK. Let's say the latest peer-reviewed articles have definitively proven that the universe needs an intelligent designer to be explained (chuckle, chuckle).

So now what? Does that give you some new insight into the question of whether superstring theory is really true? Or what the dark matter in the universe is? Or where this intelligent designer came from? What does he really want from us? How do we really know if he is a good guy? If we accept this intelligent design hypothesis, what would you have us do about it?

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 4:19:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 5:26:22 PM PST
Respectfully, us Creationists, we think you missed our point.

Its this:
Times have changed.

Them gaps, that the God of the gaps fills, today, theyre getting wider and wider.
So wide nowadays, God He's the only one what can fill them.
Aka Creationism.
That's a big change from the days of JFK, Marilyn, and the New Frontier, huh?

Take the Origin of Life. Peer Reviewed Science, it's day has long passed.
Not May no more, its December.
After 80 years of "Ahem artificial life is just around the corner", theyre totally clueless.
And look at Peer Reviwed String Theory. Its flopped too.

Them poor Peer Reviewed Profs. All that work down the drain.
They shouldnt of tried to disprove Creationism. Cause they lost. And that must be tough.
They should of done something useful with their lives. Help your fellow man.
I bet they wished they got into oil and gas. Everybody's got to have oil and gas.

But you make a good point.
Us Creationists, we dont got a lot of insights on dark matter. Nosiree.
Speaking for myself, I sure got no insights.
But then, I dont got no interest neither.

I mean, God He made everything. Dark Matter too. So He must of cared. I confess I dont.
See, me and the missus we got 8 Gifts from God we got to take care of.
Diaperwise, weve gotten all the dark matter we really need.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 6:44:50 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
"Us Creationists, we don't got alot of insights on dark matter."

So what do you got insights on?

Lets say you proved your point. Now what? Is there anything else you are even remotely curious about? Or are you just happy with ending all further questioning with this final "God musta dunit"? The end of all questioning and mystery, right? That way we can all finally relax and sit back, stagnating in comfort forever. Anytime we don't know something, we just shrug and say "Oh that's easy. God did it", and put our sombrero back on our face and continue our little siesta in comfort.

Hey, they don't call it "the comfort of faith" for nothing, right? I can't imagine a more powerful narcotic.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 7:16:09 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 7:42:57 PM PST
Well, speaking for myself, I got insights on two things
1 Centrifugal compresssors
2 Doing whatever the missus tells me to.
I admit, on dark matter, I'm clueless.

But so there's no doubt, Us Creationists, we sincerly mean this, we dont want to gloat.

I mean getting to the truth, you dont think that counts for a lot?
So its good this Peer Reviewed Origin of Life Wild Goose Chase its pretty much over.
And I figure God He gave us so much to learn. Not just them compressors neither.
Look at consiousness. Nobody dont know nothing about what it even is.

But still, our Atheist Science Groupie friends, its got to be tough for them nowadays.
Remember when they said: "Ahem evolution made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"
They was so happy then. Kind of sad now.
I mean how are they going to say this?
"Peer Reviwed Origin of Life Science flopped, so we know God He made the first life, but I'm still an intellectually fulfilled Atheist. "
I figure that's why theyre in denial.

Anyhow, maybe them scientists can get useful jobs now. Instead of wasting their lives on a bust.
Bad news for them though. The W Word. Work.

For us Creationists, I sure wish you was right, and we could "ahem, put our sombrero back on our face and continue our little siesta in comfort".
But 8 kids, how long do you think my missus will let my siesta last for?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:05:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 9:06:47 PM PST
barbW says:
you sound like you know all about our origin? This is laughable, because no one knows.

added; I don't know how that question mark got in there. It must be God's doing.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 11:21:19 PM PST
noman says:
RE:Christopher Haynes says: "But 8 kids, how long do you think my missus will let my siesta last for?"

CNN Investigates Christian Fundamentalists' Child Abuse

And last but not least, from the same show, here is a must-see disturbing interview with Jocelyn Zichterman, a woman raised abusively by a Independent Fundamental Baptist pastor with Pearl's philosophy of discipline, wherein she describes in detail the methods of beating for hours with the goal of completely breaking the wills of children (even at 3 years old), "so they have no will of their own" and are "completely docile".

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2011/09/cnn-investigates-christian-fundamentalists-child-abuse/

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 11:30:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 11:31:59 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
Ah, I see. So science is no longer doing useful work, but just saying "god did it" is. OK. Thank you. I am sure that will take us far- back to good ol' medieval times.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 11:30:52 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
Where did I say I knew? I am upset with those who do.
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Discussion in:  Science forum
Participants:  13
Total posts:  43
Initial post:  Dec 13, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 21, 2012

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