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the relation between science and mysticism/wisdom traditions/mystery schools, etc.


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Showing 1-23 of 23 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Dec 19, 2012 4:54:37 PM PST
Hi, this topic is merely a request. I am investigating the foundational underpinnings to "new age", "integral", and/or "quantum" spirituality, and I am searching for any respected scientists who have something to say on the intersection of science and spirituality/mysticism. I appreciate both sides of the conversation; that is, I am open to reading both scientists who think any such relation is "woo-woo", or scientists (or authors who draw from respected scientists) who think that such a relation is more than woo-woo. In both cases, I am looking for cogent, mature arguments that draw from respected scientists and do more than out-do the immature proponents on either side of this paradigm. Also, any thoughtful discussion on this topic is welcome; I apologize for any redundancy if this thread is an old one. However, I am mainly looking for book recommendations which approach this topic from an integral or "new - age" perspective, with minimal "woo-woo" and maximum science. Thanks in advance ;|

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:14:20 PM PST
Rev. Otter says:
The Dancing Wu Li Masters

from 1979 so it's kinda dated now, but it's a great introduction to the intersection of quantum theory and eastern mysticism.

also, a fun read. :)

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 5:57:11 PM PST
Ah, yes. I had a copy of that book but I didn't get around to reading it. I might try to find my old copy, but I'm looking for something more overtly grounded in a science perspective, if it exists.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 8:33:22 PM PST
no connection at all

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 8:33:48 PM PST
no connection between science and the other stuff at all

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 8:40:33 PM PST
Astrocat says:
The Self-Aware Universe, by Amit Goswami. Definitely not "woo-woo".

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 10:01:20 PM PST
Thanks, I've seen that one in the bookstore before; haven't checked it out. I was working on Science and the Akashic Field by Laszlo, but I've lost it. It was a pretty good read but I thought he dismissed alternate theories pretty quickly. It read much more like a metaphysical work than a science treaty. Is SAU like that at all?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 10:02:12 PM PST
thanks for the clarification; your trolling is always appreciated

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 4:15:27 PM PST
more like zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz snore

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 4:16:12 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 5:33:49 PM PST
What makes your posts significant?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 7:30:45 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 21, 2012 7:31:15 AM PST
they are factual and true

insightful and brilliant

you could see a lot if you opened your eyes

Posted on Dec 21, 2012 8:27:49 AM PST
"you could see a lot if you opened your eyes"

And how would I do that? Care to share your brilliance?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 12:53:04 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 1:05:11 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Butter, Goswami gives an introduction to Quantum Physics and then connects those theories to metaphysics, but in a very clear way. I don't think it was meant for physicists, but for people like me, who have some understandings but needed to find a foundation to plug them into. That's what I found in Goswami's book.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 1:27:12 PM PST
RawCocoButter,

The "linkages" between quantum physics and New Age notions are all metaphorical, reasoning as if reality is coded equally in both systems. It isn't. New Age notions, for example, often assume that "consciousness" is a fundamental aspect of reality. Quantum physics has little to say about consciousness as an aspect of reality; it is generally treated as an epiphenomenon, arising as a product of condensed-matter physics and chemistry.

Nevertheless, you might be interested in this: <http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4918v2.pdf&gt;

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 6:30:51 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
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Posted on Dec 23, 2012 4:43:49 PM PST
Physics have progressed way beyond that examined in 'Wu Li' and 'The Tao of Physics'. The relationship between physics and mysticism has been demonstrated to be not at all close.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 25, 2012 9:02:18 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 26, 2012 6:25:08 AM PST
RCB,

Here is a link to a paper by Brian Whitworth, an information scientist in New Zealand, in which he proposes that what we know as reality is in fact a virtual reality generated by an underlying information field. It is sort of science speculation at the edge. He doesn't include consciousness in the underlying information field, but that would not be difficult to add in - as speculation, of course.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0801/0801.0337.pdf

And here is a link to a paper by David Chalmers, the Australian philosopher who coined the term and popularized the issue of the "hard problem" of consciousness. In this paper, he argues that the reductionist paradigm is not able to explain consciousness because there is always "the other question." Hence, he proposes a panpsychic explanation because materialism is intrinsically unable to provide an explanation. I independently arrived at the same conclusion with the same argument, so - obviously - Chalmers must be right. (:<]

http://consc.net/papers/facing.html

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 26, 2012 7:22:59 AM PST
i saw a physics book sayin gwe are just a 7 dim hologram being beamed in from another universe

some speculate whether we are just a super simulation on some other super creatures computer - or just a 7d vid game for his kid to play with

Posted on Dec 26, 2012 7:57:24 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
The true nature of the physical universe is a mysterious subject as is time in general. Scientists today don't understand time very well.

One of my favorite theories is people can be reincarnated into any time period past of future or even live the same life experience over again. For example someone could die today and then be reincarnated in the American Old West time period.

Reincarnation is based on the idea that when the physical body dies the spirit returns to a timeless dimension.

Theories like that raise many strange and paradoxical questions since they imply that everyone and everything exists in an infinite number of possible futures which may or may not actually happen in this physical world. If someone were to 'repeat' the same incarnation over again and change even the slightest thing this would cause a ripple effect and create a completely alternative future for everybody.

That's what those morbid Butterfly Effect movies are about. I've seen the original and as I recall some of part 2.

The Law Of Karma states that people can pay a penalty for evil deeds done in a past life. Although that's just the negative aspect of karma. We can create positive karma also.

But the term 'past life' may be an over simplification. We may be affected by things that we will do thousands of years into the future.

"All time is one." - Edgar Cayce

Jeff Marzano

The Lives of Edgar Cayce [Paperback] W. H. Church (Author)

Edgar Cayce on the Akashic Records: The Book of Life [Paperback] Kevin J. Todeschi (Author)

The Holographic Universe By Michael Talbot [Paperback]

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 4:42:40 PM PST
Thanks all for the contributions. Will likely look into Goswami; may check out Edgar Cayce, and will read the papers which Paul Whitmore posted. Will post back if I feel I have anything noteworthy to contribute. Mark Allen- with respect, I do not believe that panpsychism or consciousness first theories are fully outed. Indeed, in my view, many scientists are predisposed to dismiss any theory which can't be explained within the context of materialism and empiricism. Now, I do believe that these approaches have significant value, but empiricism oversteps its value when it claims that all non-rational or a-rational approaches to truth are false. We are likely in fundamental disagreement over this point. I hope you see where I am coming from.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 28, 2012 5:45:49 AM PST
RCB - " I am investigating the foundational underpinnings to "new age", "integral", and/or "quantum" spirituality, and I am searching for any respected scientists who have something to say on the intersection of science and spirituality/mysticism"

Depends entirely on what you mean by "spirituality/mysticism." Many conventional scientists view the scientific enterprise itself as a homage to the wonder and beauty of the universe. Sagan called science "informed worship." So the indifference (or even scorn) these conventional scientists show to "new age" and similar pursuits should be viewed with that in mind.

It's presumptuous, in my opinion, for 'new age' practitioners and enthusiasts to think that anyone who rejects their beliefs as unsound must be lacking in 'spirituality' or wonder or whatever. Meaning, I don't accept that new age enthusiasts have unilateral authority to decide what counts as spirituality. My appreciation for science and mathematics touches closely on the same feeling I get from 'spiritual' writers like Blake or Emerson. That doesn't improve the scientific validity of new-age mysticism or whatnot.
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Discussion in:  Science forum
Participants:  9
Total posts:  23
Initial post:  Dec 19, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 28, 2012

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