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If the Cambrian "Explosion" is evidence of creation, what would be evidence of evolution?


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Showing 51-75 of 158 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2012 4:47:28 PM PDT
In reply to your post on Apr 13, 2012 11:01:48 AM PDT
John D. Croft says:

"Creationists as usual are 150 years out of date. They are tilting at windmills that have long since been replaced and now become solar power plants."

Brilliant!

Posted on Apr 13, 2012 9:29:36 PM PDT
A. Whitney says:
Of course stars are older than the moon. Our solar system is relatively young.
Almost the entire Solar System formed only 4.6 billion years ago, about a third of the age of the universe.
Old Stars have been dated at 12.4 billion years
White dwarf stars average 12.8
Most of the universe is older than the moon.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2012 9:41:43 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 14, 2012 8:55:00 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2012 9:52:57 PM PDT
Werranth,

The distribution of stars follows a power law

The O, B, and F stars (the big bright supergiants) that are easily seen are not as plentiful as the G or K stars (similar to the sun), and the red and white dwarfs vastly outnumber them all.

The O's and B's are younger than the moon. F and G stars are often the same age as the moon, and red and white dwarfs are often much older than the moon. Our moon is 3rd generation. There are 1st and 2nd generation stars aplenty.

Hope this helps

Regards

John

Posted on Apr 14, 2012 1:01:22 AM PDT
Well, the brain dead residents of Kansas are against evolution in the schools, and as the sorry state that spawned Prohibition via Carrie Nation and her Women's Christian Temperance Union, if they're agin' it, I'm fer it!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 3:25:28 AM PDT
Alpo says:
The so called Cambrian "explosion" unfolded over a period of 6 million years. Now, if that was the labor of God, please tell him to be more efficient next time!... We can do much better today with genetic engineering.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 8:42:36 AM PDT
Roeselare says:
6 million?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 9:07:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 9:09:36 AM PDT
Roeselare says:
Hi John,
I was trying to find the fairly simple power law equation, because I had it quite a few years ago, but it's on an old cartridge storage drive now. :( It accounted for metallicity, so it wasn't the extremely simple mass vs main sequence duration equation.

I found these more involved studies, which also try to solve for rotational and magnetic field factors. So I guess my simpler equation isn't posted on serious science sites any longer, which is understandable.

"An extensive and homogenous database of stellar evolution models for masses between 0.8 and 120 solar masses and metallicities from Z=0.001 to 0.1 is available. In general the models include evolutionary phases from the main sequence up to either the end of carbon burning for massive stars, the early asymptotic giant branch phase for intermediate-mass stars, or core helium flash for low-mass stars. Pre-main sequence tracks, both canonical (i.e. evolved at constant mass) and accretion scenarios are also provided, as well as horizontal branches for low-mass stars. Predictions regarding the spectral evolution of massive stars can further be obtained from the so-called "combined stellar structure and atmosphere models"."

http://obswww.unige.ch/Recherche/evol/Geneva-grids-of-stellar-evolution

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 3:00:07 PM PDT
Whiplash says:
Some estimates (which may be out of date by now) place it closer to a 20 million year event. Either way, it's still a very long time and hardly the spontaneous event that creationists like to claim that it was.

Also, the beginnings of the Cambrian was marked by the evolution of a three-layered body plan (ultimately providing a circulatory system), hardened structures, and eyes in numerous animal lineages. All of these allowed animals to evolve in radical new ways that had previously been impossible- having circulatory systems allowed animals to grow larger because they didn't need to depend on having every cell in their body being able to passively exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide with the outside environment or be close enough to their digestive tract that nutrients would passively transfer to those cells.

Hard structures, like chitinous exoskeletons, made animals more durable. Suddenly they weren't as prone to getting ripped open if they hit rocks or were attacked by predators. They also allowed muscle attachments and rigidity- enabling animals to move faster and with more force, especially useful for animals with eyes, because they could now hone in on prey with an entirely new sense that provided greater accuracy at a distance than depending on scent or vibration detection could. Conversely, eyes could be used to detect approaching predators at greater distances than before, giving an animal more time to flee or hide. Rigid body parts could be used as armor to defend against attacks. All of this meant that there was now a great variety of previously unavailable ecological niches than had ever appeared before, so it's no surprise that numerous species were able to evolve in rapid order. Especially since many invertebrates have very short generations, and the speed at which a species can evolve is inversely related to the length of time between generations.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 3:09:15 PM PDT
Excellent post, but don't forget the potential Bilataria in the Ediacaran (eg. Kimberella, etc.)

(Kimberella! You *shall* go to the ball!)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 8:32:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 8:36:48 PM PDT
Roeselare says:
We should keep gratitude at the ready when we recognize what happened during the Explosion (which I think played out over 80 million years). The ancestors of the slugs and the bugs somehow luckily began evolving these huge protective exoskeletons, and it proved to be an irreversible mistake!, because on land where a manipulative intelligence could blossom rapidly, outstripping every other survival strategy, that cumbersome and inhibiting exoskeleton baggage was the deciding factor, the biggest vulnerability.

The slugs and bugs lost the planet! Not because we were so effective at surviving, but because we cluelessly bided our time. If you're not grateful, you're not paying attention.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 2:02:25 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"The slugs and bugs lost the planet! Not because we were so effective at surviving, but because we cluelessly bided our time. If you're not grateful, you're not paying attention."

The slugs and bugs have been around far longer than us, and will probably be around long after humans are extinct. There are no winners, simply losers who go extinct, and so far the strategies of slugs and bugs have kept them in the game for hundreds of millions of years.

It remains to be seen if intelligence is a longterm survival strategy: big brains are expensive in a number of ways, and as is demonstrated daily on the Amazon forums, often a wasted resource. [Note: this is not in reference to any recent poster on this thread.]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 6:36:21 AM PDT
Number of vertebrate species alive today: ~62,000

Number of insect species (i.e., bugs) ~1,000,000

Number of mollusc species (i.e., slugs) ~85,000

Er, *who* lost, exactly?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 6:59:44 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"Er, *who* lost, exactly?"

Precisely.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:09:24 AM PDT
The dodo, the carrier pigeon, the ivory-billed woodpecker, T. rex, Brontosaurus......

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:23:25 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"The dodo, the carrier pigeon, the ivory-billed woodpecker, T. rex, Brontosaurus......"

All losers in the game; there are no winners, simply survivors.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:46:59 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2012 7:54:44 AM PDT
Roeselare says:
Longer? You forgot bacteria and all the flora. lol

Humans, for now, are the only species who can propagate life from this planet to other star systems to insure their longer term survival, because humans are the only species who can attempt to protect this planet from the inevitable catastrophes to come. Hopefully impactors, nearby supernovae and GRBs, climate change and superflares from our star will allow us enough time to prepare for them.

"It remains to be seen if intelligence is a longterm survival strategy..." What is intelligence for - if not to protect environments and propagate/disperse to sustain evolved lifeforms into the distant future? It's up to us.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:48:26 AM PDT
whomper: i was a pro soccer referee

Please explain, if you will. Is that the same as pro life, pro choice? Or is it provisional something?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:53:14 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2012 7:56:23 AM PDT
Roeselare says:
I wonder if those other species would rather have our lives (or maybe they're happier with their lives than we are).

How far back was it when arthropods and vertebrates had the same levels of awareness and intelligence?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:54:44 AM PDT
There's only one thing worse than being talked about, Robert....

Posted on Apr 15, 2012 7:56:35 AM PDT
In reply to your post on Apr 15, 2012 7:53:14 AM PDT
werranth413 says:

"How far back was it when arthropods and vertebrate had the same levels of awareness and intelligence?"

I dunno, when was MFEH's last post?

(SORRY -- really couldn't resist this one after all the recent insults on other threads)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 7:56:50 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2012 8:00:22 AM PDT
M. Helsdon says:
"Longer? You forgot bacteria and all the flora. lol"

I was keeping to your criteria: slugs and bugs. LOL.

"Humans, for now, are the only species who can propagate life from this planet to other star systems to insure their longer term survival, because humans are the only species who can attempt to protect this planet from the inevitable catastrophes to come."

Yet we are presently living through a period of mass extinctions, caused by humans... And we haven't even managed to send a manned mission to another planet in our Solar System, so the stars seem an improbable destination.

""It remains to be seen if intelligence is a longterm survival strategy..." What is intelligence for if not to protect environments and propagate/disperse to sustain evolved lifeforms into the distant future? It's up to us."

And we are not doing a very good job of it...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 8:08:24 AM PDT
Deckard says:
Physics Geek said:
"I guess god appearing and proclaiming evolution is true is the only acceptable evidence for creationists."

But then they would say: See, we told you. Evolution IS a religion.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 10:54:58 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2012 10:56:07 AM PDT
Roeselare says:
not being talked about...heh but I don't suppose that many posters have you on ignore, Philip. If so, it's their loss.

It's a fine line to walk in here, to be well-liked AND stimulative for the sake of ongoing discussions. I'm willing to risk some problems for my ego if I can get the benefit of someone's long experience. It's occasionally a priceless and unique slant that I probably won't get at work or during our rehearsals.

My hubby considers it a waste of my time, but he plays golf!
Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 15, 2012 12:20:25 PM PDT
Irish Lace says:
""How far back was it when arthropods and vertebrate had the same levels of awareness and intelligence?"

I dunno, when was MFEH's last post?"

Fell OFF my chair laughing!
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Discussion in:  Science forum
Participants:  38
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Initial post:  Apr 6, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 17, 2013

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