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Christians! Help a dumb atheist


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Showing 1-25 of 103 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jun 20, 2008 11:45:58 PM PDT
Yea..I'm an atheist, so help me out here christians. "Love thy neighbor"

Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change his future mind?
-Karen Owens

Basically, explain to me how you make sense of the incompatibility of the Omniscience and omnipotence of god

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 22, 2008 5:22:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 22, 2008 5:44:57 PM PDT
A. Rockstad says:
The Bible says God is unchanging, but I doubt that you really want to know the truth. Perfection doesn't change, if it did that would make it imperfect. If you have perfect knowledge why would you change your mind? These words are used to give a description of God that we in the finite can understand, but how can we completely understand a God who is infinite? We can't, but we can understand some characteristics of him that he wants to reveal. It has been said by many religions you will find what you seek. In the end some people will be wrong and some will be right, it is the law of contradiction. Some say you can't know the truth, by saying that they are contradicting themselves because they are claiming what they say is true. In my opinion the two most important questions are what is the consequence of what we believe and what is the truth?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 23, 2008 7:31:53 AM PDT
Julie says:
I think really the problem is you need to see a demonstration of the reality that there is a God. All the talk and doctrines and denominations and divisions and wars in the name of God are enough to make any normal intelligent human being either doubt His existence or deny it.
So I think thats what we are all waiting for, a true demonstaration that God really is alive, he does care and he did send the "son" whatever that means.
I think most christians are sincere in thier wanting to serve God but they have been handed a bad bag of goods that contain only mystical reality, that says they can love god and be part of the world too. I dont buy it. So probably no one is going to be able to truly answer your question if they even understand what your asking.
I do think something is going to have to break, God, if he is real, is going to have to do something real. But i dont think it will be some great thing that everyone will notice. I think it will be small and humble and easily looked over, easily scoffed at by the the great religious movements of the world. Maybe only those who are truly seeking the truth will be able to recognize it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 23, 2008 8:12:10 AM PDT
T. Jackson says:
Exodus 32:1-14

It is hard to wrap your head around, but the fact of the matter is... what we say can impact God. You can get into deep theological dissertations about the difference between foreknowledge and predestination, but at the end of the day... God cares about us, and what we have to say. And THAT will never change.

If we were dealing with a God who wasn't impacted at all by anything, God would be nothing more than a really complex program finishing its routine. We would be nothing more than robots living out His predefined movements. Facets to Christianity such as prayer would be useless and hollow.

What we see from the Bible is a God who is VERY involved in our lives and who wants us to be involved in His. He wants us to have a close and intimate relationship with him.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 23, 2008 1:20:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 23, 2008 1:22:55 PM PDT
You are worrying about things nobody really understands. We use these terms to the best of our ability, but no human is either omniscient or omnipotent. I have a question for you. If you heard God say, "I am glad that you are my kid. I love you very much." would you love him back?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2011 2:46:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 13, 2011 2:54:53 PM PST
Chilly Down says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Posted on Dec 13, 2011 2:47:31 PM PST
Chilly Down says:
Re: "Christians! Help a dumb atheist."

No. I only help smart atheists.

LOL

Posted on Jan 25, 2012 11:43:21 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 25, 2012 12:31:19 PM PST]

Posted on Jan 25, 2012 2:12:34 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 26, 2012 4:58:15 AM PST
Keith says:
Of course, you are assuming that God omnisciently knows the future; and as axiomatic as that may seem, not all Christians in fact believe that. First of all, I think all our God-talk is metaphorical; but metaphors matter. And the question is what metaphors the Bible uses to disclose and interpret God. I think the Bible presents a God in relationship with creation, who suffers with, for, and because of creation; we cannot know God apart from his relationship with creation. Consequently, I think trying to discern who God is independent of his relationship with creation is futile and heading in the wrong direction anyway.

So, what does all that have to do with the issue of God's knowledge? It means that the Bible presents God as not always knowing, not always having an answer, not always one-upping everybody. It represents God as searching and grieving and learning; and although such metaphors may unsettle us, if Christians accept the biblical witness, then they must accept those metaphors as they stand rather than reinterpret them through the static, classical categories of Nicea and Greek philosophy.

To answer your question directly: God can and does change his mind (or so the Bible says), but the distinctive aspect of it is that God does not change his mind in the way humans do, i.e. capriciously. God always does what he does out of wisdom.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 25, 2012 6:58:42 PM PST
I won't explain it to you. I feel bad for anyone that tries. You don't get to know Jesus unless you follow him and worship him. THe mystery of Christ is revealed through encounter, not logical propositions.

Posted on Jan 25, 2012 8:27:09 PM PST
J. Ness says:
This is like asking whether God can make a rock so big He can't lift it. What is the point of the question, save to say that God can't actually do something, thereby "disproving" Him? In this particular question, I think the first answer was quite good. God has perfect future knowledge and so doesn't need to change His mind. His omnipotence helps because He has the power to do anything He wants to make His will come to pass. If you want to believe in God, seek out a pastor at your local church. In my experience, most are willing to have an adult discussion without being condescending or condemning you...which is unfortunately more than I can say for many Christians.

Posted on Jan 26, 2012 4:23:14 PM PST
MK Hill says:
You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012 12:23:19 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 27, 2012 12:26:20 PM PST
Eric Berger says:
perhaps God has never changed his mind, I don't take the bible too literally, do some research on NDEs (Near Death Experiences), perhaps this will change your mind about life after death. There are universal experiences of a white light and a singular consciousness. My conclusion, He/She is a God of universal love not an angry tyrant as described in the Old Testament.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012 5:14:57 PM PST
The god of the bible isn't named god. God's just a job description. It never says his name in the bible, but the general consensus is that his name is Jehovah or Yawhe or JHVH since you're not supposed to use the whole name.

Posted on Jan 28, 2012 2:08:39 PM PST
James Ratts says:
There is a God and He is Seeking You. All You have to do is Confess to God that you are a Sinner, ask for God's Forgiveness, and Accept The Lord Jesus Christ as Your Savior.

Jesus Christ died on the Cross for All of the Sins of All the World (Not Just for Christians but for ALL) but to Receive God's Free Gift Of Salvation To You, Please follow the Three Steps above.

Here is a short Prayer, which if prayed in Earnest Will Settle Your Eternal Destiny to be with God Forever.

"Dear God, I know that my sin has separated me from You. Thank You for sending Your Son to die in my place. I now trust Jesus to forgive my sins. I invite Him into my life as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for receiving me into Your eternal family. In Jesus' Name, Amen."

If You have taken the First Step (above), the next step is to find Reliable Christian Help. You can find this at: rbc.org. No Pressure, They WILL NOT ASK FOR MONEY, but there is Help.

You are now on my prayer list. Hopefully I'll see You in Heaven.

God Will Answer

Posted on Jan 29, 2012 4:43:54 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Apr 27, 2012 3:51:32 PM PDT]

Posted on Feb 6, 2012 11:57:02 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 7, 2012 12:30:13 PM PST
ILHJ

With respect, are you sure that the people you refer to are genuine Christians - or is that just how they label themselves? I am constantly surprised at the number of people who claim to be Christians yet seem to know little or nothing about authentic Christianity and seem very unwilling to admit that they need Jesus as their saviour.
Still, God knows where such people are really at, not me.

Adressing the original question: The question is wrongly constructed in it's assumption that God has a past, present and future. In fact He calls Himself "I am". So being omniscient and omnipotent isn't a real problem.

It helps here if one remembers that God is a unique being who existed before this universe came into being (since He created it). He is not just some very old superhuman being.

The supposed problem of God and the stone is likewise based on erroneous thinking:

Can God make a stone so big He cannot lift it? No.

Why not? Because:

1. In the Christian definition at least, God is the greatest being in existence, bar none. He is, so to speak, an unstoppable force.
2. The proposition that there might be an imovable object (a stone that God could not lift) is therefore nonsensical. Since God is potentially the creator of the stone the proposition that the stone could be immovable (liftable) requires that God cease to be an unstoppable force.

3. Therefore there is no case to answer, and neither condition would dent God's omnipotence since it is illogical to pose the question in the first place.
4. In short, a pre-existing genuinely unstoppable force automatically rules out the creation of an immovable object, and vice versa.

It is confused human thinking that accepts as meaningful the proposition that two diamatrically opposed conditions can exist at the same time.

Bottom line, quite a few of the God-slaggers tend to be overly confident about their (alleged) ability to think more intelligently than anyone else. But when you actually see some of their "logical/rational" arguments and so-called proofs, you really gotta wonder whio's kidding who.

Posted on Feb 6, 2012 5:21:35 PM PST
Wantstoknow says:
*sigh* Reading all the posts I find believers are at the ready to make excuses for their god, and the lack of proof of the existence of that god. If god wanted to be believed in It would show itself in a manner that no one could doubt. Easy peasy! Isn't going to happen tho' is it? (and I secretly believe 'believers' get a bit nervous about that issue also.)
Jesus has been "returning soon" for over 2000 years. Did he miss the bus? Get stuck in scanning and pat-downs at the airport?
I know, I know "faith"
Faith: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof.
It's ok, believe in what you want, just be sure not to try and foist it on others.

Posted on Feb 6, 2012 9:17:07 PM PST
"have respect" by capitalizing god(God)....curious as to why he would bother to have respect for a god he doesn't believe in...going so far as to capitalize the g in god? Just because it is religious in nature...does not mean it automatically deserves respect..though it always demands it...even from those who have no belief in it? Why is that?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 12:16:00 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 9, 2012 3:13:55 PM PST
Patricia

The evidence for the existence of God is all around you:

1. according to those of the evolutionist persuasion, we live in a "randomised" universe. That is to say, there is allegedly no inherent order other than where event B can only happen if event A has happened first.

2. Even where event B must be proceeded by event A, since there is (allegedly) no inherent order, event A might happen without event B ever ocurring. (This is the essential weakness of the evolutionary hypothesis, as it currently stands.)

3. And yet in practice scientists assume that we live in a consistent, orderly universe. That is to say, they assume that "laws" which apply on Earth will apply all through the rest of our universe. They assume that chemicals, electrons, protons, etc., will all act the same way tomorrow as they did today and yesterday.

4. In other words, scientists work entirely out of their beliefs. Including the belief that what was true yesterday will still be true tomorrow.

5. In short, the evidence of God is all around you. Including the fact that you have free will and can choose whether you recognise that fact or not. Christians at least, I won't try to speak for believers in other religions, aren't generally "a bit nervous" with so much evidence on hand. Though having said that, the word for someone who never doubts is "dogmatic".

When Christians are accused of being "dogmatic" that is usually intended as a criticism. So isn't it a negative when observed in atheists, too?

As to the return of Jesus, Jesus himself said that no man, not even himself, knew when that would happen. If you think the event is overdue perhaps you could let the rest of us know how you know that.
(Remembering that the word "soon" is entirely relative - "soon" as compared to what.)

And on the subject of logical proof - I'm just now reading a book by Professor Victor Stenger (a self-styled new atheist) in which he sets out seven supposedly logical "proofs" that God does not exist (pages 31-33).

Trouble is, not a single one stands up to even mild investigation. For example:

"1. If God exists, then he is nonphysical.
2. If God exists, then he is a person (or a personal being).
3. A person (or personal being) needs to be physical.
4. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist."

And the flaw?
On what authority do we know that a person or personal being MUST be physical?
In practise, in this supposedly logical argument, point 3 is pure supposition and therefore point 4 is unsubstantiated.

Of course you may be smarter than Stenger, and I'd personally be interested to see any "logical proof" you have for the non-existence of God.

Or, if you want to go for something more positive - if you have/had a partner who you believed loves/loved you, how would you prove - logically/scientifically - that the love was real and that they aren't/weren't just in the relationship for some ulterior motive you know/knew nothing about?

To quote yourself:

"It's ok, believe in what you want, just be sure not to try and foist it on others."

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 12:27:02 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 7, 2012 12:31:11 AM PST
Leeann

Actually there is a very good - non-religious - reason for using a capital "G". In the context of this discussion "God" is the name given to a specific being, as compared with "god". That is to say, in the monotheistic religions there is only one "God", though various other religions have numerous "gods".

In the English language that means that "God" is a "proper noun", which is normally indicated by the use of a capital initial letter. To use a lower case "g" is more a sign that the writer lacks basic literacy skills than a simple lack of respect. Though in practise I suspect that people often refer to "god" rather than "God" because they think that is incredibly daring and radical.

In those cases where my guess is correct, however, the action is somewhat ironic, because it implies that the writer believes that there really is, or at least could be, a God who might be offended by this behaviour.
Oops!

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 5:06:23 AM PST
A.J.: Your comment is accurate to a certain point but if I don't believe in a god or THE God..then why would I distinguish between how I spelt the name? They are all ficticious to me...the Abrahamic god is just as unreal to me as any of the other thousands of gods out there. Also, if Christians believe in God and I use god when referring to "him" as such, I'm quite sure that they can do that little twist thing in the mind where they take my god and make it God for their own personal satisfaction and peace of mind. As you said, a name demands a capital letter, as in A. J. is capitalized because you exist and you have a name....I don't believe god exists and so his name (as named by human beings) being capitalized by me would indicate I believe he does and I'm giving him that respect of capitalizing his human given name. Possibly you (any you) require basic literacy skills to make this distinction...but in this case I prefer to keep it god and show that THE god of the Abrahimic faiths is no better or superior than any other god in my opinion. As for Santa Claus...I've seen him with my own eyes...numerous times. Sat on his lap a time or two as well. He exists and so I capitalize his name. Easy.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 12:05:51 PM PST
Leeann

No matter what you happen to believe - and that is entirely your business - the distinction still exists, even if only in theory.

But if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 12:16:10 PM PST
user30 says:
www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=J_GmifF8Fkc

Howard storm was a atheist with all his heart.. He died. met God (he was shocked to!) got the truth and now he talks about it.
take a look at the link above.

www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=HGQDkCi-OIY&feature=related

Tamara Laroux shot her self and she explains what happens to her in vivid detail.

so their you go proof from people who have been their done that.

Posted on Feb 8, 2012 6:54:25 AM PST
A.J.: I'm well aware of the distinction as I said...I also said as an atheist I choose not to distinguish between gods...as they are all make believe to me. If you don't get it then you don't get it.
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