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Customer Discussions > Tolkien forum

Is Feanor in effect the first Orc?


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Showing 1-17 of 17 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Oct 8, 2008 5:58:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 8, 2008 6:04:39 PM PDT
In the Silmarillion, the Valar, or at least Manwe, grieves as much for the marring of Feanor as for the loss of the two trees. As Melkor made Orcs by disfiguring captured Elves, could one consider Feanor an Orc, who was "marred" by the lies of Melkor?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 18, 2008 8:00:51 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 18, 2008 8:02:54 PM PDT
No way "Gozer"you're definitely"out of your gourd"with that question/suggestion..Feanor was simply the first dude who stood FIRM for something he felt strongly about!! Read my take on Feanors' actions in my"Dont go away MAD,Yavanna,just go AWAY"discussion

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 18, 2008 9:29:45 PM PDT
Murdering to take the ships, abandoning the other eleves on the ice... this was standing firm? Feanor seems consumed by greed and pride to me

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 19, 2008 4:53:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 19, 2008 5:19:39 PM PDT
You've got a point there"Gozer",but keep in mind that everything Feanor did was fueled by a desire to protect his"children"(which in effect the Silmarils were to him)from those who would've seperated him from them!! Feanor had already ADMITTED to having an UNCANNY(look this word up)love for his(and the worlds')most beautiful creation!! Maybe Feanor was driven with pride,but I see it as mostly PASSION!! Feanor was definitely no ORC!!! I'm for Feanor having a motion picture centered around his struggles with the Silmarils!!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 19, 2008 7:39:19 PM PDT
I would love a Similarrion movie a well...

I think the Simarils became a sort of "One ring" for Feanor. One can transform any "good" to destructive evil. I could seee Feanor as having been driven by by passion had he not murdered elves for their ships, and left the other elven host stranded on the ice.

When I read the story of Feanor I see a person that degraded and destoyed himself with selfish obsession, and thereby turned himself, with the help of Melkor, into an Orc.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 20, 2008 8:55:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 22, 2008 3:47:15 PM PDT
Point taken,but the blood shed at Alqualonde was the fault of both parties involved..A misunderstanding that spiralled out of control,not a premeditated slaughter on Feanors part!!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 20, 2008 8:55:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 20, 2008 8:58:53 AM PDT
Feanor simply lost control of his passionate quest to recover his lifes' work!!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 20, 2008 7:04:08 PM PDT
I see what you're trying to say, but even if you conisdered Feanor an orc he definitely wouldn't be the first. The first orcs came into exsistence before he was born, probably.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 21, 2008 4:11:15 PM PDT
Hi Katrina, your right about the first Orcs coming into existence before Feanor was born..

ok, just for fun, where do you think the real orcs go when they die?... to Mandos? I like to fantasize that Feanor has to live with them till the end of time in a specal part of Mandos' halls.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 29, 2008 12:27:14 PM PDT
Bruce Wilson says:
The Orcs appeared long before Feanor's time, so he wasn't the "First." And, in a metaphorical sense of "Elf corrupted by Meklor" I suppose he was, but the Orcs were so changed that they really were a separate race.

JRRT says that elves, if they die, go to Mandos for a while and are re-incarnated. If Orcs are indeed corrupted elves, they probably go there too. Perhaps while there they are 'fixed' and are re-incarnated as proper Elves.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2008 7:18:29 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 3, 2008 7:20:19 AM PST
Not at all. According to Professor Tolkien, orcs [goblins] are "cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones." -- The Hobbit. Fëanor could not have been an orc: his mind, temperament, and creative style would have been inconsistent with that definition. And despite the evil deeds in which he later engaged, he remained brave right to the end of his life. Bravery was a trait seldom demonstrated by orcs in any of Tolkien's stories.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 12, 2008 8:15:51 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 12, 2008 8:17:10 AM PST
worst_trip says:
Not many brave orcs in any of Tolkien's stories? Apart from Ugluk in 'The Two Towers' who fights so persistently (while greatly outnumbered by a superior force of horse-mounted Rohirrim) that eventually Eomer has to get down and take him on in single combat,that is. And Bolg, who goes out to war in 'The Hobbit' in revenge for the killing of the Great Goblin. Not to mention the goblins from Moria who are travel out from, presumably safety in the Mines, to avenge their kinfolk in 'The Two Towers.' None of these are very noble motivations for bravery, certainly, but as is argued in Feanor's case in the above quote, bravery and evil aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It's true that Tolkien seldom mentions orcish demonstrations of bravery in his stories, but then he doesn't mention orcs all that much per se, so this is unsurprising. I agree that he probably didn't at all intend for orcs to be regarded as a 'brave' race, but in spite of that , some of their actions in the books if viewed in a certain light could tend to contradict this.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 12, 2008 11:43:13 AM PST
I see your point. In my mind, bravery is a higher virtue than courage.

The Orcs are fierce, cunning, strong, and rageful. However, for me, the sum of these qualities do not add up to "bravery". To me, being brave requires being motivated by something more than self interest. Melkor and Sauron led and motivated the Orcs through fear.

To this day, very few prisoners are taken in face to face battle. It seems to be a given that battles in the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and LOTR are "take-no-prisoners" affairs.

I have to tip my hat to Ugluk and admire his self control in battle, which is in a sense courage... I would personally cower and panic in any of the battles that Tolkien wrote. Still, I can't get to a place where I can credit Uglak with bravery. (Some of the SS guards in the concentration camps fought to the death when the camps were liberated because they knew they had no option of surrender. .. that does not make them seem "brave" to me.)

In one of the volumes of "The History of Middle Earth" Sam tell his children that Moria has not been retaken because more more monsters still live there. I think the Orcs left Moria to fight under threat of some kind of force.

Posted on Feb 6, 2009 2:58:20 AM PST
Read Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien wrote a lot about different conceptions of orcs' origins. In the end, he decided that it was impossible for Orcs to have come from elves. It also clear that orcs MUST not go to Mandos. His son couldn't include this in the published Silmarillion because it wouldn't fit with the more complete accounts in existence when Tolkien died.

Furthermore, I recall Manwe's response to Feanor's addition to Mandos' Doom. It seems remarkably silly for one of the Valar to make that kind of statement in response to an Orc.

Also, you should remember that Feanor is supposed to break the Silmalrils after the last battle and give them to the gods, who then recreate the Two Trees (depending on which of the many versions Tolkien wrote about the end - see the first five Histories).

Lastly, ALL orcs served and MUST serve Morgoth, despite their hatred of him. Feanor never served Morgoth. His motives may have been less than honorable and he did commit atrocities, but he never served the darkness, which is what makes the story tragic. He was a very bad good guy, like many characters in classic literature. (Everybody remembers Herculies, how complained to his mom that he didn't get his way, and then sat on his butt while his countrymen got slaughtered.) Orcs are necessarily bad guys. It was always completely obvious to me.

Posted on Feb 20, 2009 7:04:15 AM PST
Very interesting thread, that I think hits to the heart of a major theme of Tolkiens. Ultimate swallowing of evil by good. Think of the music of the Ainur when Illvultars music encompassed Melkors, but it was this defeat of Melkors music that brought out the splendor of Illvultar, which otherwise would have not have been revealed. In my opinion, it is Freedom of the children of Illvultar that is this theme of power. This freedom can be best shown by the Decisions of Feanor. Is freedom truly freedom if he couldnt make wrong decisions, have remorse, have regret. To a lesser extent the Valar show this (think of Aule making the dwarves in defiance of Illvultar). Tolkien is sort of saying that evil is neccessary to make music, but also saying evil just will ultimately show how good, good is. This to me is an extremely beautiful aspect of tolkiens writing. I hope this post isnt too confusing, I am not a good writer, but thanks for the threads. Ohh, back to the point of the thread, orcs I believe are the repetitive music of Melkor that slowly dies out ( thus showing their fate in my opinion).

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 22, 2009 8:28:42 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 22, 2009 8:29:38 AM PST
Marian Bauer says:
Worst-trip.....Ugluk was an Uruk Hai not an orc. They are different, Saruman bred Uruk Hai to be better and stronger than orcs. The orcs with Ugluk some ran into Fangorn being chicken. Bolg went out because it was only 15 people and they had hundreds of goblins. Plus they were out to meet the wolves because they were going to raid the villages anyways. The goblins of Moria also way outnumbered the people they were "brave" enough to chase after. Some of the orcs of Moria were enslaved by Sauron so they had no choice to leave the mine.

Posted on Jul 16, 2010 2:29:54 PM PDT
N. Perz says:
I believe Uruk Hai are a breed of Orc.
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Discussion in:  Tolkien forum
Participants:  10
Total posts:  17
Initial post:  Oct 8, 2008
Latest post:  Jul 16, 2010

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