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Frederik Pohl topic on #SciFiChat 11/18/2011


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Initial post: Nov 18, 2011 11:06:35 AM PST
I am David Rozansky, publisher of Flying Pen Press and moderator of #SciFiChat, Fridays 2-4pm ET on Twitter. our topic this week (November 18, 2011) is Frederik Pohl.

This week, i am trying a simultaneous chat with the Amazon Forum. The first question this week for #SciFiChat is:

#SciFiChat Q1: What is your favorite Pohl novel?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:10:44 AM PST
Gateway was a moving novel for me, when I was teen with angst, Gateway helped me find my way. #SciFiChat

Gateway (Heechee Saga)

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:16:55 AM PST
From JLichtenberg: Pohl's effect on others, as editor, writing teacher, career counselor, & inspiring novelist is historic #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:17:38 AM PST
#SciFiChat Q2: What is Frederik Pohl's greatest contribution to the world of #SciFi?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:36:00 AM PST
From JLichtenberg: Today things like "Klout" measure your "reach" - circle of effect on others. POHL stands beside John Campbell in inventing SF! #scifichat

From sgarnell: #scifichat Oh yes, the #futurians changed the world. I vote for that :)

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell As a mover/shaker in the community of fandom, Pohl's "reach" built the foundation of a generation #scifichat

From ebonstorm: I can't tell you what he did for the world of scifi. I know he made it okay for ME to be different from my community. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @DavidRozansky Via FANDOM, Pohl's influence sparked the inventive imaginations that founded modern SF #scifichat

From ebonstorm: He encouraged scifi fandom and that allowed the secret fans of scifi to get out and come together. A big deal for me. #scifichat

From tomwrussell: @scifichat A2: Mr. Pohl's editorship of Astonishing Stories in the formative years of the genre shaped SF for generations. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm fandom itself is a big deal for all of "us" -- Pohl was among a small handful who changed the world #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @tomwrussell That was my answer. Pohl's biggest contrib to the world was his editorial skills and commentary #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: We can't forget Pohl's leadership of SFWA in critical times. #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: @tomwrussell Pohl's editorial contrib far surpassed any of his novels, and you can see frm comments how vast his novels were/are #scifichat

From sgarnell: @ebonstorm #scifichat We all have different experiences. It should have had some impact. But please, tell us why Pohl was more important.

From JLichtenberg: @tomwrussell When he was editor at Bantam Books, he bought my first non-fic STAR TREK LIVES! which blew lid on ST fandom #scifichat

Note: see Star Trek Lives!

From ebonstorm: He was important to me because he was a prolific writer of scifi short stories. This was where I acquired my love of the genre. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: I grew up in a neighborhood where sci-fi was simply not a part of our lives. His Man Plus was one of my earliest novels of SF. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: It transformed my thinking about what humanity was and what it could ultimately be. It made me want to know more. #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:36:37 AM PST
#SciFiChat Q3: What effect did Frederik Pohl's editorial efforts have on #SciFi. Are #editors as important today in SciFi?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:48:41 AM PST
From sgarnell: @scifichat #scifichat Well, he was a bit tough at first. No? smaller payments if he found spelling errors. Not sure about his later years.

From JLichtenberg: A3 I've answered about Pohl's editing. 2day editors have LOST influence via self-publishing, but will soon regain! #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Pohl didn't work through the transition to electronic text submissions, but did ban dot-matrix printouts at Bantam #scifichat

From jbonnell: A3: Editors are losing significance for two reasons: print magazines are going by the wayside and self publishing, but... #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: You know, Pohl is the only person to win a Hugo for both editing and for a novel. So I am told. #SciFiChat

From twilight2000: @DavidRozansky He's also a lovely, lovely man and a great GOH! #scifichat

From ebonstorm: I think editors and science fiction are both necessary and hard to come by. Their influence today has waned but may return. #scifichat

From jbonnell: A3: ... (con't) I think editors will reinvent themselves into the self publishing world, just the big houses will compress. #scifichat

From jbonnell: RT @jbonnell: A3: ... "reinvente" proof an editor is still a necessity. ;) #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: Pohl is famous for first publishing some of the writers who went on to be big SF writers. #SciFiChat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Yes yes. Indie I hope will help reinvent the way things work. I'm with you on that.

From AKOTAS: #scifichat I lunched with Pohl once, I think at the last Rivercon c. 2001, cuz a friend knew him. I don't think my stepkids knew who he was.

From sgarnell: @DavidRozansky #scifichat Kornbluth was one. I loved the Space Merchants.

Note: see The Space Merchants

Frpm JLichtenberg: @sgarnell I am SOOOO Indie-oriented. Fan-writing and fanzines were the "indie" of that day #scifichat

From ebonstorm: Editors will find their way in this Brave New World. People need the structure and order they bring to books. #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @AKOTAS Very cool! Did you extract wisdom or just have fun? #scifichat

From nvbinder: Editors are important (and, re-invented, will remain so) in shaping the culture of scifi and getting writers to market. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Space Merchants captured my imagination, too. John Campbell and Fred Pohl were titans #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat I hope we see a boom of Indie. Not self-publishing. Indie as a group of people will keep the quality high. IMHO.

From jbonnell: @JLichtenberg That's my thought. Working the fan-zines into the self-publish world can still work. Just a technological hurdle. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: A case of not missing the water till the well runs dry. Quality control needs to be high to keep scifi and fantasy genres viable. #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat With all the problems seen in business. Everyone should read the Space Merchants. It would help fix society :)

From robynmcintyre: I liked a lot of the stuff he did with Kornbluth #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell I'm collecting self-publishing writers who SHOULD be self-publishing and are as good as any TradPub has #scifichat

From sgarnell: @robynmcintyre #scifichat They were a good team. But they also fought at times. Do I have that right?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 11:49:08 AM PST
#SciFiChat Q4: In what ways does Pohl's editorial work stand out? How important today are editors to the #SciFi genre?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:01:46 PM PST
From jbonnell: @JLichtenberg Maybe the future is more of a co-op mentality (group of writers working together) and continuing to self-publish. #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Finding great self-pub writers is like looking for diamonds in the rough. I'm with you on that.

From ebonstorm: Conflict is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. It may have brought a higher quality to the work being fought over. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @sgarnell Writing is an art and a craft, many writers may possess one and need training with the other. Good editors find them. #scifichat

from sgarnell: @ebonstorm #scifichat Good editors look for talent. I'm with you. Sad that trad. publishing is not seen in that light.

From nvbinder: I'm uncomfortable w/the idea of writers hiring editors 1) I can't afford it. 2) I think changes the writer-editor relationship #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm Editor is connection b/t writer and reader - funnels product from source to consumer #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @sgarnell Trad. publishing is looking for refined craft, not necessarily artistic capability. Hence the work is solid & dull. #scifichat

From sgarnell: @nvbinder #scifichat Nothing wrong with hiring a freelance. But like all business relations...many factors affect the outcome.

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm @sgarnell trad-pub needs HUGE sales to support biz model, & can't change fast enough #scifichat

From sgarnell: @ebonstorm #scifichat From a business point of view, I can understand that. But yes, the art has suffered from it. Thus all the change....

From nvbinder: @JLichtenberg I read a 2004 study that said 80% of professionally published books sell less than 100 copies. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm Indie film market is likewise shaping field, just as Pohl & First Fandom created modern SF #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @sgarnell I think like so many things this century, the money won out and the art was sacrificed for expediency's sake.

From DavidRozansky: @nvbinder There are editors who make writing good, & there are editors whose job is "to find profitable projects to publish." #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: 1 thing Pohl had figured out early on is how the BIZ MODEL of publishing could SERVE SF tastes #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg Which proves it takes a creative mind to be a good editor #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell #scifichat I don't just hunt great self-pub writers -- I train them via my blogging on http://t.co/669gVHk7

From nvbinder: And I think there's still room for "titans" like Pohl who can help mold the genre from a macro perspective by picking writers. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: I don't think any of us are "against" trad publishing. We are against the mechanized, dehumanizing process of said publishing. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Fred Pohl understood costing warehouse/distr & saw how tiny minority could ride coat tails of big biz #scifichat

From ebonstorm: Writing is not the crafting of paperclips or car parts. It is an art and should be treated with a bit more respect. #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @ebonstorm I haven't found being trad. published to be dehumanizing or mechanized. I love my publishers. #scifichat

from JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Thus the big biz of publishing carried Sf product to SF readers, a gnat riding a whale #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm writing is one thing, PUBLISHING is something totally different, and basically at ODDS with writing #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm That conflict btw bizmodel and art is vanishing FAST with e-pub. #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:02:22 PM PST
#SciFiChat Q5: @JLichtenberg, what are your personal memories of selling your first #SciFi to Frederik Pohl? #popinterview #scifi #writetip

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:16:26 PM PST
From scifichat: RT @JLichtenberg: http://t.co/aWgFIsEF is story of sale of my first story to Fred Pohl. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ebonstorm http://t.co/z9ilfO5V You MUST read this to understand what I'm saying #scifichat

from JLichtenberg: @DavidRozansky At the time I got the snailmail letter from Pohl accepting my first SIME~GEN story, I had been his fan for yrs #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg I've been dying to say I think your editing is GREAT! You spot what's needed and offer solid advice. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: http://t.co/U2aqbqRQ is that first story, up for free reading #scifichat

From B4 I sold, I took a correspondence course in writing from THE FAMOUS WRITERS SCHOOL - do not recommend it #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Ride the coat tails: Pohl had good business sense; I wonder what he would have thought about the whole system now?

From JLichtenberg: The writing school's advice was good though. Pick a market, find editor, STUDY editor's output, send what they pub #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: I had studied Pohl's editorials, dissected how he composed an issue, all stories grouped around 1 THEME #scifichat

From richmagahiz: @JLichtenberg Writers have to think like hunters, you're saying #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: I charted the theme direction each successive issue was taking, extracted material from my universe to tickle HIM #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: I drew a bead on Pohl's imagination and wrote specifically to nail his attention, and it worked. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: At the time, Pohl had started a program of publishing 1 FIRST SALE per issue, and mine was aimed to be 1 chosen #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: Operation High Time sold to Pohl as a "First Sale" but when issue was printed, the label was left off. #scifichat

From ebonstorm: If a writer is trying to write for a market, he has to target that market with the right trap or the right bait. #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg What was the theme? #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: That was the Jan 1969 issue of WORLD OF IF MAGAZINE OF SCIENCE FICTION, & is collector's item (not 4 my story) #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @robynmcintyre I actually don't remember the theme - but it's about young ppl starting out, and changing the world #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:17:26 PM PST
#SciFiChat Q6: Frederik Pohl's novel Gateway won both the Nebula and Hugo awards. What made this book so special?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:37:17 PM PST
Note: see Gateway (Heechee Saga)

From sgarnell: @scifichat #scifichat A6: It had lots of mystery in it. I found that the most compelling thing about it. Hard to put down.

From JLichtenberg: A6 I'm not sure GATEWAY won Hugo&Nebula because it was so special, but because Pohl was nexus of creativity #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: A6 everyone who votes Nebula (SFWA members) knew Pohl and couldn't not-read Gateway #scifichat

From richmagahiz: @scifichat A6 Here are Jo Walton's thoughts on the book http://t.co/NTyDS9pC #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: A6 everyone who voted Hugo (Worldcon members) knew Pohl and couldn't not-read Gateway (pre-pub publiclity huge) #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: A6 so by voting time, every voter had read Gateway - other books pub'd at same time got read later. #scifichat

From sgarnell: #scifichat @JLichtenberg Sorry, are you saying the books own merit was not the reason? Just trying to clarify...

From JLichtenberg: A6 most readers don't note the pub-date when reading and feel books were written in the order in which they find them #scifichat

From AKOTAS: #scifichat A6: What I remember of Gateway was the AI. Part was the alternate sexualities. Is this why it won awards? I dunno.

From JLichtenberg: @AKOTAS Correct, the composit of elements Pohl used, avante garde in both tech and social made Gateway talked about #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell No, I'm saying the MERIT of Gateway got noticed because of timing and marketing #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell No amount of marketing can help something w/o merit, but stuff with great merit and no marketing doesn't win #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Although, I think today, the shock/surprise of the bi-sexuality wouldn't be such a big thing But at that time...

From nvbinder: @JLichtenberg Marketing is key. A mediocre book can't become a classic through exposure--but it can become a bestseller. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Marketing is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition for winning BOTH Hugo&Nebula with same book #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat So it was a perfect storm. Great book, and he knew everyone who was voting. Nice.

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Yes, today sexuality is no shock. Don't forget LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS by LeGuinn also Hugo/Neb winner #scifichat

Note: see The Left Hand of Darkness

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Other way around, voters knew Pohl -- many Pohl didn't know; but b/c of fandom Hugo voters knew each other #scifichat

From @sgarnell Remember also FANZINES - and fandom - connected Hugo voters, while SFWA had own gossip rag #scifichat

From sgarnell: @DavidRozansky #scifichat If so, then would state for the record: Pohl was the greatest! Bar none!

From JLichtenberg: So on with Pohl buying my first Sime~Gen story OPERATION HIGH TIME - Sime~Gen went on to duplicate STAR TREK in microcosm #scifichat

Note: see Sime~Gen: The Unity Trilogy

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat In today's terms, I think we just call that getting a "following" and getting to know the community out there. No?

From JLichtenberg: So as the Sime~Gen Novels came out and won awards, Star Trek fans spawned Sime~Gen fiction fanzines (6 of 'em) #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: That Sime~Gen fanfic is online for free reading at http://t.co/nitQKKas #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @sgarnell Yeah - Pohl had a great platform and networked authentically (in today's speak) #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: Between my first sale to Pohl and sale to him of STAR TREK LIVES! 2 Sime~Gen novels came out - 1 an award winner #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: While working on those novels, specifically House of Zeor, I targeted ST fans as I had targeted Pohl #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: I sold my first novel, House of Zeor, in hardcover, on a money back guarantee to Trek fans who were Spock fans, none returned #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: I took on 2 co-authors for the STAR TREK LIVES! project while House proved my theory of why ppl love Trek #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Today, many target #starwars fans. But ...at the same time, does one lose track of the art? Lose originality?

From JLichtenberg: After we failed to sell STL! to Del Rey, and Pohl had rejected it, Joan met Pohl at a con in Toronto. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: In Toronto, Pohl asked Joan Winston if Star Trek Lives! was still available because he needed a book for a pub slot #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: James Blish was ill (turned out terminally) and couldn't deliver a novel, so Pohl bought STL! to fill that slot #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: With close, hard deadline, we went through I think 3 re-edits and cut STL! about in half, and it was published. #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: Star Trek Lives! went 8 printings. Joan Winston died a few years ago, and I've lost track of Sondra Marshak #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:37:47 PM PST
#SciFiChat Q7: What parts of #SciFi fandom do you think traces directly back to Frederik Pohl's efforts?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:47:24 PM PST
From JLichtenberg: A7 I doubt any part of SF fandom is unconnected with Pohl and Campbell. They pub'd addresses with letters to eds, connected us #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg I liked Blish. #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: Can anyone help reunite @JLichtenberg and Sondra Marshak, co-authors of Star Trek Lives! ? #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell #scifichat yes, getting a following is much easier today with facebook etc.

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell #scifichat part of professionalism in writing is showcasing the art while fitting marketing requirements

From DavidRozansky: I think Pohl was one of the guiding hands to what is now the full scifi convention atmosphere and emergence out of Gernsback age. #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell #scifichat part of an editor's real job is to polish the artistic gems in the matrix of the commercial setting

From JLichtenberg: James Blish wrote a book that entranced me, title escapes me - CITIES that traveled space using spindizzies #scifichat

From AKOTAS: #scifichat I liked Blish's early Star Trek work better, before he learned what the fans wanted and/or was beaten into giving it to them.

From DavidRozansky: @JLichtenberg Cities in Flight, by James Blish. I have a signed first edition, may very well be my favorite #SciFi of all time. #SciFiChat

Note: see Cities in Flight

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat I agree that editors need to polish artistic gems. And...repeat what we said earlier about Indie publishing.

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg There were four books in that series. #scifichat

note: see Cities in Flight: They Shall Have Stars; A Life for the Stars; Earthman Come Home; The Triumph of Time

From JLichtenberg: @DavidRozansky Oh, thank you YES CITIES IN FLIGHT -- in flight, how could I forget that, flying city on cover #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @DavidRozansky You lucky #SciFi #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: @robynmcintyre Yes, 4 books in that series, but 1st was the mind-boggler. At time I read EVERYTHING that came out. it was unique #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 12:47:53 PM PST
#SciFiChat Q8: What is the most important lesson Pohl's work teaches #writers & #editors?

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 1:08:44 PM PST
From JLichtenberg: A8 I think Pohl's work can't "teach" really b/c he was a "Rennaisance Man" - you either are, or you aren't #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @sgarnell Absolutely "Indie" of today is the future of publishing. Eventually it will be the establishment to be overthrown #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @JLichtenberg I disagree. I think Pohl's work teaches us that you can do anything you can imagine as long as you do it well. #scifichat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Oh well, then I look forward to being overthrown at some point. LOL :)

From richmagahiz: @scifichat A8 Today we learned that publishing writers with no prev sales can pay dividends #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: A3, the very defn of "classic SF" Pohl wrote "the literature of ideas" - literate, with IDEA DRIVEN PLOTS #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: Pohl often took a very broken society, & showed how the most down and out tend to have the most motivation to conquer the plot. #SciFiChat

From JLichtenberg: @Ginikoch is right, takeaway is "do anything you can dream, but do it well" -- thing is, U can learn it but nobody can teach it #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @ebonstorm Exactly. My grandmother read SF to see what'd be coming in the future; she felt if we could imagine we could create #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @DavidRozansky Pohl showed us that we all come from a broken home. #SciFiChat

from JLichtenberg: @GiniKoch possibly that 'imagine then create it' attitude is being plowed under today - not sure what'll grow next #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @GiniKoch SF writers of the First Fandom era were very serious futurologists. Today's writers veer off frm prediction #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @JLichtenberg Likely to be replaced by the "its impossible, but lets do it anyway, because somewhere in reality, its true" schema #scifichat

From DavidRozansky: Pohl also showed us that nothing gurantees that the US can't become a burned out hulk of a country. #SciFiChat

From sgarnell: @JLichtenberg #scifichat Not many futurists these days I feel. IMO. Fantasy elements are too strong, and easier to deal with.

From GiniKoch: @JLichtenberg I don't know. I have fans who've proven my science works. Space flight was a ridiculous dream in the '30's. #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: SF titles in the 50s were so monolithic in sound: They Shall Have Stars, Beyond the Blue Event Horizon... #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @sgarnell Not to worry, my friend, I shall keep the future, moving as fast as it can in my stories. #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @JLichtenberg I think you sell today's writers short. Sure, not all of us are prediction focused, but some are. #scifichat

from JLichtenberg: @GiniKoch Yes, exactly so - it was only a decade ago that statistics proved there couldn't be life out there b/c no planets! #scifichat

From sgarnell: @ebonstorm #scifichat Please. We need more futurists out there.

From JLichtenberg: @GiniKoch Prediction is one thing, futurology is another. I am now seeing more cautionary tales than futurology #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @JLichtenberg Right! So just because it might SEEM that we're not predicting now, chances are that many of us ARE. #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @ebonstorm I think so. Anyway, maybe futurism is out bc we don't know what to do w/ it anymore (& bc tech is so fast now) #scifichat

From ebonstorm: @JLichtenberg Yes, tell that to those 450 exoplanets they don't exist because Humanity said so. Now disappear! #scifichat

From GiniKoch: @JLichtenberg I think both are there, just like both were there before. When things are bad, we tend to focus on cautions. #scifichat

From robynmcintyre: @JLichtenberg Which just underscores that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics #scifichat

From sgarnell: @GiniKoch #scifichat Oh god. Don't tell me those end of the world movies are gonna be it for us....

From ebonstorm: @robynmcintyre Futurism is more challenged because the future is changing so fast. Not dead, super-accelerated. I can keep up... #scifichat

From ebonstorm: Tech is allowing the best performers to dominate global markets, crowding out even the slightly less skilled http://t.co/1y50wjvX #scifichat

From JLichtenberg: @ginikoch just nailed it! What Fred Pohl contrib'd to SF was during when "things were bad" and focused on FIXING it #scifichat

From ebonstorm: This is a fine example of what we are talking about, no one is willing to admit "technology can fuel unemployment" #scifichat

Posted on Nov 18, 2011 1:10:30 PM PST
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Discussion in:  Frederik Pohl forum
Participants:  1
Total posts:  18
Initial post:  Nov 18, 2011
Latest post:  Nov 18, 2011

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