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Thoughts on Lasciel??

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Initial post: Sep 26, 2011 3:15:35 PM PDT
M. Weir says:
Jim Butcher hinted in an interview that Lasciel wasn't gone from Harry's life for good and I believe that she's hinted at again at the end of Ghost Story as the parasite which kept Harry's blood flowing. I hate to think that her shadow is still living in him; her sacrifice was so poignant. Rather, think how much torture Jim could put Harry through if Lasciel's coin were taken up by someone else (Molly... Thomas ...!).

(Also, I can really see Murphy with Shiro's sword (faith) and Thomas with Michael's sword (love) in the future. Re-reading the series, you see the word faith surrounding Murphy quite a bit - her faith in the law, in justice - and the same with Thomas and the word love.)

Posted on Sep 30, 2011 2:07:01 AM PDT
Kelly says:
at least SOMETHING is still around in Harry - he got a whisper at the end of White Night. But IIRC Jim has not ruled out LASH returning either. Lasciel WILL be back, noncommital on Lash. And sometimes being willing to make the sacrifice is sacrifice enough. There is precedent, all the way back to the Biblical story of Abraham.

CAN a vampire bear a Holy Sword? I don't know.... Murphy might - amd might not.

Posted on Oct 1, 2011 8:59:47 AM PDT
Kelly you could be right And Sonia I believe that is the right way to spell his name with out getting the book to make sure. Anyway I really don't think that he would care. Also taking up love might turn Tomas from being a Vampire in other words take away his cravens for the life force to live on so that he can be free to love fully. And to have Lasciel to come back as a Fallen Angel that is forgiven yes that would make a wonderful book. So yes you could be right.

Posted on Nov 10, 2011 10:54:02 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 10, 2011 10:54:33 AM PST
I missed the start of this conversation, and I am really taken with the fallen angel and her possibly returning to Harry's life, in one form or another. I look forward to it

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 10, 2011 11:00:22 AM PST
You are not the only one I think that it would be great. And if you need some more arthur's let me know.

Posted on Nov 10, 2011 11:04:13 AM PST
Kelly says:
Charles - I am not sure we will see Lasciel as forgiven - but maybe Lash as a separate entity. Harry said "Lady, you ain't Lasciel", and soulfire IS the fire of creation... could Lasciel create Lash? I'd imagine if the entity exists, they can find/create a body for it.

Posted on Nov 11, 2011 8:05:40 AM PST
Yes Kelly I would like to see her back and helping Harry get away from Mab. But we'll know soon what kind of things Harry will be going though if mister Butcher does like he usually does and give a preview of things to come. At least I hope so.

Posted on Nov 29, 2011 6:19:00 PM PST
Throughout the series Dresden gives commentary that what people see in him during a soulgaze makes them uncomfortable, though his mentor (his name escapes me, which will bother me until I grab my kindle) obviously didnt quail, but then being the blackstaff might skew his outlook. The point is, his...turning (?) of Lasciel's shadow may be the best evidence that whatever is in him isn't all that bad. To address a previous post about Lasciel coming back as a forgiven fallen angel...I've no idea what Butcher's personal faith or lack of it is, but he does have an excellent grasp on the doctrinal teachings of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, the point being (and I know I risk the trolls here), is that the Fallen can NOT BE forgiven. They've been judged already. I think Michael actually points that out during one of the novels, that the Denarians are manifestly incapable of repentence which is the prerequisite for forgiveness. Lash, however, is a separate entity, sort of a corrupted program. Not sure the judgement applies to her, and Butcher can of course do whatever he likes, that's why its called fiction. I hope he does...I liked Lash.

Posted on Dec 1, 2011 1:03:05 PM PST
Also a way around being unforgivable is that Dresden links the Lash in his head to a self aware entity that lives only inside him and is separate from the Lasciel of the coin. He uses that knowledge to convince the Lash in his head that she is a seperate soul and would die if he picked up the coin. Therefore we could see a saved version of Lash being forgiven and Lasciel remaining as a coin.

Just a thought.

Posted on Dec 1, 2011 1:23:49 PM PST
Kelly says:
But does LASH really need much forgiveness? If she started in Harry's mind, the only evil she has done is encourage Harry to take up the coin. She's also saved Harry and others in the Battle of the Deeps, and helped him talk to the ghouls to try to rescue the trainees in New Mexico - something that does not directly help her cause at all. You can't revisit Lasciel's sins on Lash.

Could Harry's soulfire have created a soul for Lash? Now, who could create a body for her? Beyond wizards, and likely Mab (she likely does not go to all the trouble of keeping Harry's body alive if she could recreate it).
Did Odin/Vadderrung CREATE the Valkyrior, or are they born? Might be only Uriel (of whom we have seen) has that kind of power,

Posted on Dec 1, 2011 1:28:30 PM PST
My only reply to that post is....


In reply to an earlier post on Dec 1, 2011 2:10:29 PM PST
Of course she saves Harry and his friends, and helps in whatever way possible. The whole of her purpose is to convince Dresden to pick up the coin, so she engenders trust. You CAN revisit Lasciel's sins on the shadow that first arrives in Harry's mind, there is no functional difference between the two. Lash is something different. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, but Uriel is an angel. A powerful one, surely, but still wholly subservient to the will of his God, and therefore incapable of performing a task the Christian God reserves solely for himself. Besides, you are looking for a vessel, not a whole living, sentient being. You need a frakenstein, not an Eve.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 1, 2011 2:41:12 PM PST
Kelly says:
Saving Harry does help Lasciel directly, saving trainees does not (I said help directly). It is also possible Lash has some latitude in her actions - if something does not hurt Lasciel's cause, she can help Harry. I think Lash likes him, and wants to help if she can without hurting her mission.

Uriel is an Archangel, but we do not know what strictures have been placed on him. We do know he does not always use what power he has - when Harry asked to be healed from his broken back, Uriel said he had the power to help - but he would not. I merely say Uriel has the power to create the vessel - not that he would. I do not think the others have that amount of power. I do not know the power of Creation is limited to the Divine - people do it with their bodies. And if Creation is limited solely to God - how could a Frankenstein succeed?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 1, 2011 3:30:40 PM PST
I have to say that you might be on to something there. Also she might become real at some time in the future.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2011 5:05:08 AM PST
Now we ARE close to arguing semantics. Anything that leads Harry to further trust the shadow helps Lasciel directly, we are actually talking about two distinct entities. The shadow of Lasciel has the demon's interests foremost, but remember a demon can afford to play the long con, especially with a wizard that lives so much longer than a normal human. So, while it could be argued that more Wardens in the short run is damaging to the Denarians and Lasciel, it is nothing in the face of having Harry willingly pick up the coin. LASH, however, is different and I agree with you completely that she has latitude. She is a she, the shadow is an it.

To your last question, which may have been rhetorical, if so I apologize: Creation of a living being with human faculties from whole cloth is something most faiths attribute solely to their deity, the mechanics may be biological, the soul, that "breath of life", comes from the Divine. The being in Frankenstein, the original Mary Shelley, was a thinking, speaking, sentient life. More, he is intelligent and articulate, but Shelley didn't bother explaining how he had these faculties. Hollywood has corrupted that and made the example seem wrong. My point was, that something desiring to give Lash a form doesn't need to expend the power of the Divine.

As to Uriel, not only does he say he would not, he says elsewhere that he CAN not help. The strictures on an angel, even an Archangel would be...draconian I think. Think of Lucifer and what he did. I only meant to say that Uriel's God would not permit something like that, and I doubt Uriel himself would attempt it, disobedience and ego being Lucifer's primary faults.

Truly, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I find this discussion interesting. The whole point of reading fantasy, to me, is discussions like this. Everyone takes what they want from it. What's going through Frodo's mind as he decides to keep the ring? What is Vader thinking when he hacks off Luke's arm? An argument about this would be much less interesting, and probably silly.

Posted on Apr 7, 2012 1:00:18 AM PDT
ive wondered if when he was healed the part of his brain she was in was healed as well. or maybe she has been building her strength/healing since she did talk to him at the end of white knight. with bob gone she would make a great replacement

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2012 1:02:06 AM PDT
maybe but i thought that was something his island and mab used to keep him alive

Posted on Apr 13, 2012 5:22:51 PM PDT
Jim NEEDS to write another book soon or I will dry up and die. I hate these long breaks...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2012 11:36:29 PM PDT
So long as they are for quality, or even to pursue other stories, I don't mind. It can only improve his craft, and that is why we read, no?

Posted on Apr 14, 2012 12:21:29 AM PDT
Kelly says:
Jim didn't even START Cold Days until the beginning of this year. It's due at the publisher July 1. Maybe a fall release?

Posted on Apr 14, 2012 10:54:04 AM PDT
R. Thiemann says:
Serack here from Jim's official forum.

Jim flat out said at multiple signings last year that both Lash and Lasciel showed up in Ghost Story, but not by those names. We also have an unconfirmed report that Jim told one of the forum members while he was signing her book that "Lash was the Parasite"

Serack, the WoJ Rockstar.

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 5:31:22 PM PDT
Zerockas says:
I think that Lash/Lasciel fill in that bad girl role that Butcher started with Susan. That role, in my opinion, is necessary in this series to show the conflict between Dresden's good and dark natures.

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 6:38:06 PM PDT
That is a valid argument through Changes. But now I think Mab more than adequately fills that niche. Clearly dresden's "sort of but not really dead" experience didnt take care of the "til death do us part" aspect of being the Winter Knight.

In reply to an earlier post on May 18, 2012 7:57:04 AM PDT
I have to think on this for awhile get back on this. You both have a vital argument on this.

In reply to an earlier post on May 18, 2012 9:15:27 AM PDT
Having given more thought to the question of lash in general, we may have forgotten about Dresden and the other wizard's amazing ability to heal. What's to say Lash didn't realize she was taking a bullet for Dresden but also realizing she may be in for a long hospital stay rather than a metaphysical grave? Perhaps Lash could even serve as a countering or mediating influence on Mab?
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Discussion in:  Jim Butcher forum
Participants:  16
Total posts:  38
Initial post:  Sep 26, 2011
Latest post:  Jul 27, 2014

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