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Platform: Xbox 360|Change
Price:$21.97+ Free shipping with Amazon Prime
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on December 28, 2010
I was a little suprised to see so many bad reviews. I actually thought this game was pretty accurate to the classes I had been taking. It definitely gives you a work out. The menu options are a little basic and uneventful but if you are using this game for work out purposes, for me anyway, it worked amazing. I worked up a sweat just doing the 20 minute classes (on easy). Because I've taken Zumba classes before, I knew a majority of the steps. I think the people who are claiming that it doesn't pick up their body movements could be misguided. Even on easy, and with a little experience, I found the dance class to be quite fast and with little instruction. This being said, if you are not a pro, it's not going to pick up every single step you do. it's just too fast, there are too many movements from head to toe. I don't have a problem with this personally. It doens't pick up every move I make but I realize the moves are very complex so most likely it's ME who isn't getting it right and not keeping up the pace. It's a lot harder than Dance Central which I noticed a lot of people are comparing it to. If you want a good work out, this is also a good thing. The harder the dances, the harder you work to keep up, and the better workout you get. If I want to have fun with friends I play Dance Central, if I want a work out, I play Zumba.
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on January 5, 2011
Zumba Fitness - Kinect

First, I am a total newbie to the Zumba world. That said, I am having a great deal of fun getting in shape using this title. In trying to reach my fitness goals using my Kinect, I have currently tried out EA Sports and Xbox's Fitness Evolved (neither of which I am a fan of after using the similar title Wii Fit), Kinect Adventures (fun, but not really geared towards fitness), and Dance Central (also fun but also not really geared towards fitness).

The Zumba title comes close to meeting all of my personal high level criteria for a great fitness title:

+ Tiered Cardio Workout (*****)
+ Fun Workout (*****)
+ Multiple Activities (***)
+ Workout Calendar (****)
+ Tracks Weight and Calories Burned (0)

What I love about Zumba:

+ I'm only at the beginner level and I'm (grinning but) SERIOUSLY TIRED within 20mins!!
+ I have a lot to learn and am having fun learning it.
+ I look forward to my workouts.
+ The workouts are varied even within the workout so you don't get bored.
+ The 'trainers' and online indicators of 'success' help but don't hinder your psyche (i.e. FUN is the key factor).
+ If you slow down, the music doesn't stop, so if you get tired you can jump back in at full speed at any time.
+ It follows the overall workout rhythm of warm up, high intensity, cool down without ever sitting down.
+ The music is fantastic and so are the dance moves!!

What needs to be fixed or could be improved:

+ The menus are a catastrophe and need to be fixed, but I have learned to navigate them.
+ It would be great for a weight graph feature to be introduced.
+ An estimated calorie burning feature would also be great to see for the same purposes.

Otherwise, this is a great overall body workout and I would recommend it to anyone who likes dancing. I can't speak for those who already know the Zumba moves, but except for the belly dancing (which I already know fairly well and LOVE to do), I found it very challenging, and I love a challenge.

I know some people have complained about it not tracking body movements enough. Personally, the stuff I'm not good at yet, I can't really tell, but it seemed to be more or less on the mark with the belly dancing.

And, really, I'm looking to get a fun, high intensity dance workout, so that's what I'm really concentrating on, as opposed to being completely exacting regarding the moves of the dance instructor at every single second.

Anyway. I hope this review is helpful to Zumba newbies!! If you are ready for a challenge, you'll get one!!

And word to the wise: If you are using Dance Central as a workout, you ain't seen nothin' yet!! Get ready to SWEAT!! I still love Dance Central...but I now only use it to cool down if I still have energy after my Zumba workout (but not enough for more Zumba LOL) and also to play with friends at parties ;)

IMPORTANT NOTE: There are a lot of negative reviews about this product. I can't say for sure, but I very much suspect that those users either do not have Xbox online memberships, or that they wrote their reviews before the online product update came out. As soon as I put the disc in, Xbox Live asked me to download an update, which I did, and I haven't experienced ANY of the logout issues or serious body tracking issues mentioned in the one star reviews.
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on December 20, 2010
My husband and I just bought the Kinect and Zumba Fitness game today and I have to say I love the game! I don't usually review products but I felt compelled to do so since the Kinect version of this game got so many bad reviews on Amazon and I didn't want people to get turned off by that. I didn't have the problem of the game signing me off when I did turns as other reviewers did nor did I have an issue with the game not recognizing my movements, the feedback (red circles that appear around your shoulders, knees, etc.) seemed right on. I had a blast playing this game, the dance moves are sexy and fun, the music is great and on top of it all you get a great workout (I was pretty sweaty at the end and I'm fairly athletic). There was an X-Box update on the game that took place the moment I popped it into my console so perhaps the issues others had with the game have been resolved? I skipped over the tutorial and went straight to the game, starting at the beginner party level, yes the moves start to get more challenging as you keep going through the routine but the moves are repeated and I found that I was able to catch on pretty quickly. I'm looking forward to using Zumba as my morning workout on mornings I don't go to the gym and seeing what the results are! (Plus I may even be able to get the hubbie to join in, get him learning some new dance moves!) ;-)
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on November 18, 2010
I would rate this lower if the scale would allow it. This game does not, I repeat does not recognize your movements. Avoid this game like the plague. I also have Fighters Uncaged and it is 100% better than this title. I am very very disappointed in this title and I can't believe they actually released it in this buggy state. The game repeatedly locked up, and then would sign you out during moves that it instructed you to do. This game did not recognize body movements, and the menu system was incredibly hard to navigate. I took this game back after only having it for 1 hour. I even argued with the pimple-faced Game store idiot to take it back. The game is too buggy to even play. For all the game studios - Please create other Zumba games because we want them! Fellow consumers, trust me, this game is terrible. Please save your money as it doesn't work.

We have Kinect Adventures, Kinect Sports, Fighters Uncaged, Dance Central, and Your Shape fitness and they are all better games than this one. I will give you an example of the buggy activity.

The game will ask you to do a spin maneuver, but because you stop facing the camera for a second the game signs you out. Since it signed you out, you then have to go through 5 or 6 menus to get back to where you are.

Here is another example, you will start like we did by going through a little tutorial, but after being on turtle speed for 5 seconds she (the virtual instructor) ramps up to Dancing with the stars speed. What's worse she expects you to try to follow along without providing you any instructions besides "Let's go". To make matters worse, the game then completely stops recognizing your movement. In fact, I just started doing whatever I wanted to do (knee lifts, jumping jacks, punches, hip shakes) and the game thought it was great.

I'm sure that some people will post negative feedback about my review, but honestly avoid this game. I love Kinect and this is the crappiest title on Kinect or any other system that I have every tried. Contact me on Amazon and I can tell you about the other much better Kinect games!
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on December 5, 2010
I really like the workout and the music. I had read all the bad reviews and was hoping that they were maybe just user error but the game is glitchy. I found that if anyone walked behind me or around me during play the game would sign me out. Which is difficult with young children. I could just sign in and hit continue but it was really frustrating and disappointing because the game itself seemed great. I have only played it once so far and did the 20 minute routine. I have never done Zumba but have always been interested in trying it. So far I am impressed, the music was great and the moves are so fun. They don't give instruction, it is more of a watch and learn type of thing. I read reviews for the dvds and they said pretty much the same thing and it is not as hard as I thought it would be to catch on. Plus, the game gives you a little feedback I am not sure how accurate it is since like I said the game did have some glitches. I read there might be an update coming to fix the bugs I hope it's true because then it would be a five star rating for me. I might also try to use the calibration card before my next use

Update: December 20- I did the update that fixes the bugs when it came out. I put the game in and the option to download the update pop up first thing which was cool. I saw major improvement right away. I can definitely tell when I am not hitting the moves right. The instructor lights up yellow and green when your doing good. Orange and red when you are off. Also it doesn't sign me out if one of the kids walks into the sensors view anymore, sometimes it picks them up and will say Guest 2 or 3 but it doesn't affect the game play at all. The only time I get signed out now is if I leave the area for a minute, like to go get a drink of water or something. Then all I have to do it hit "Done" on the sign in screen and "Continue Game" on the next and it picks up right where it left off. Basically it takes the same amount of time as hitting pause on the remote. So all in all I think that it is a great game and fun. It's a good way to try Zumba if you already have an XBOX 360 and Kinect, since the DVDs can be pricey and this game is only about $40.
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on November 19, 2010
Of all the games coming out for the Kinect I had been looking forward to this one the most, and then after playing the first games that came out (Dance Central,Your Shape Fitness Evolved,Kinect Sports,Kinect Adventures), I was even more enthusiastic because the system was so spot on you can really lose yourself in the play - Zumba sounded like it would be a blast. I was wrong. I am so disappointed. I feel taken. I take issue with the clunky navigation, the lack of instruction paired with a quick pace, the lack of feedback on how you're doing, the glitches in recognition (not an issue with the other games), and overall buggy play and lack of interaction. I found the game to be incredibly frustrating... not fun at all. I think it's a great concept, but very poorly executed. I plan on finding a Zumba workout DVD instead... at least that way you get smooth play and direction.

I also have to say, my family has been playing the Kinect every day and we love it - it's been so much fun. This is not a case of a user being unfamiliar with how the Kinect works. And more so, the beauty of the Kinect is that you are the controller, and the game play should be intuitive and natural... for Zumba I feel like you should be able to follow the instructor's lead and just dance. What else is there that we're supposed to "get"? My patience has run out. I sold the game to Gamestop today. To those that had been upset that they didn't receive the game on the release date, I would consider it a blessing in disguise... maybe you can still cancel your order and save your money. Try Dance Central instead.
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on February 12, 2011
Zumba Fitness is an exercise game based on the exercise series that is present at many gyms around the country as well as a series of home exercise DVDs. It holds the promise that you can do your entire Zumba exercise routines in the comfort of your own home with accompanying tutorials, dance routines, an exercise calendar planner, and online/local multiplayer dance parties.

Installation is your typical Xbox affair with an optional hard drive installation of 3.9 GB (for comparison, Dance Central optionally allows you to install 1 GB to your hard drive). When you first boot Zumba, if you don't have Kinect ID configured, it will show guest 1 as the player. You're then supposed to choose your Xbox live account. From then on in that gaming session, it'll associate your face with that account. If you do have Kinect ID configured (the preferred way), when you boot Zumba, it should show the name of your account already in place rather than a generic guest 1. If it's the first time the player has ever played, you'll see a prompt for your storage device and then it'll ask if you want to create a game save. The pros and cons of setting up Kinect ID is the same for all the Kinect games. If Kinect ID recognizes you well in your chosen lighting condition, that's the way to go. You stand in front of the TV and wave your hand and Zumba Fitness knows which account to use. If you like playing in the dark or Kinect ID has a problem recognizing your face due to insufficient lighting, then don't use Kinect ID.

Even if you don't set up Kinect ID, there is some type of facial recognition going on with Zumba Fitness. When I stepped out of the range of the Kinect, my account wasn't shown on-screen. But when I stepped into view, it correctly identified my xbox live account. Also once inside the main menu, it'll say hello <whatever your gamertag is> at the bottom of the screen. If you step off the screen, it'll disappear. But if you step back in view, it'll say hello <gamertag> so there is some facial recognition going on.

Once you get past the account log-in screen, you are at the main menu where you have "Edit player", "Play", "Workout Calendar", and Extras as your options.

Under the "Edit Player", you can change the color of your silhouette (i.e., purple, blue, yellow, red, etc.), difficulty level, and age.

Under the "Play" heading, you have Tutorials, Zumba Party, Zumba Class, Single Routine, Multiplayer (local, meaning everyone in the same room), and Xbox Live multiplayer (playing with people over the Internet, up to 16 players).

Under the workout calendar option, you can create your own workout schedule or you can select from a number of preset calendar choices that cover the entire range (from 2 beginner workouts a week for 20 minutes each workout all the way to the "Zumba Glow" schedule which is an expert workout every day of the week lasting 45 minutes or 20 minutes per workout).

Now, if you're looking at my review, chances are awfully good that you're thinking of getting the Kinect version of Zumba Fitness. For Kinect, there are a whole slew of choices for dance games and workout games. But the premiere dance title is Dance Central. If you're expecting Zumba Fitness to be Dance Central with Latin music, you'll be severely disappointed. If you want a game that teaches you to dance with a great tutorial system, Zumba Fitness is not for you.

If your intent is to play Zumba Fitness just like you play Dance Central, you'll be severely disappointed. Although they have a similar superficial structure (tutorials and dance routines), they are designed differently. Whereas the tutorial in Dance Central matches the difficulty level you choose (i.e., you pick Easy level for Poker Face, you get a breakdown of the easy level steps for Poker Face), the tutorial section in Zumba Fitness does not distinguish between easy, medium, or expert. Each tutorial has all the steps of all difficulty levels for that particular routine. The Zumba tutorial starts with an easy step such as stepping forward then backward. Then it progresses to a more advanced version of the step such as including the hips. Then it incorporates the arms. The Zumba Fitness tutorials do not have a slow motion of the steps like in Dance Central. Also, in Dance Central, you can keep doing the exact same step interminably if you choose so. However, in Zumba Fitness, that is not the case. In fact, the tutorial section is essentially "broken". I've played Zumba Fitness on the Kinect and the Wii and have watched many tutorial vids on the Playstation Move and it's broken across all platforms. Let's face it. The tutorials section is not good. But the way to use the game is to play the single routines. There are multiple game types: Zumba Class, Zumba Party, single routines, etc. The problem with the tutorials is that they combine all the steps of all difficulty levels into the same tutorial. So for example, the Calypso Basic tutorial contains easy, intermediate, and expert steps.

But when you do the single routines (e.g., Calypso beginner), you only do steps for that difficulty level. So the tutorial is actually harder than the actual routine! Plus, the single routines are fixed times and have repetitive steps so for example, in one single routine which is about 4 minutes long, there's quite enough repetition for you to get the routine down. Whereas for the tutorial, the tutorial's length of time changes and it's very difficult to repeat the steps before the tutorial ends. So I would recommend you do the single routines and get the steps down. For example, do the Calypso beginner routines (there's 2 of them). Then go on to maybe merengue beginner routines. etc. etc. or maybe something like the Calypso beginner routines, then the intermediate routines, etc. Once you get all the steps down in the single routines, then go on to the Zumba Classes or Zumba Party modes. There's really no point in doing the frustrating tutorial mode. sidenote: For some of the tutorials, I ended up recording the tutorials and then setting them to 0.25X. So the tutorials sit on my PC and I stream the video to the 360 so I can do the tutorial at 0.25x to get the nuance of the hip movements and the rotations.

Beyond the tutorials are the actual game modes: Zumba Party, Zumba Class, and single routines.
Zumba Party includes: Beginner 20 minute class 1, Beginner 20 min class 2, Intermediate 20 min class 1, Intermediate 20 min class 2, Intermediate 45 min class 1, Intermediate 45 min class 2, Expert 20 min class 1, Expert 20 min class 2, Expert 45 min class 1, Expert 45 min class 2, Zumbathon.
Zumba Class includes: Beginner 20 min, Intermediate 20 min, Intermediate 45 min, Expert 20 min, Expert 45 min, Zumbathon.
Single routines include: Asalto (reggaeton / cumbia intermediate) 4:56, Baila pa emociona (calypso, warm-up beginner) 4:11, Bla blab la (cumbia/reggaeton expert) 2:58, Bring it on girl (latin dance expert) 3:49, Con movimiento (raga / dancehall expert) 4:53, Don't stop (samba expert) 2:39, Echa pa un lado (meringue / swing intermediate) 5:02, El amore el amore (meringue beginner) 4:20, El bacilon (meringue intermediate) 3:57, El twist de la munequita (rock `n roll beginner) 4:43, Enciendemela (cumbia/rumba expert) 3:31, Feel like dancing (ragga / dancehall intermediate ) 3:52, Funkizinho (warm-up expert) 4:57, Hala (reggaeton expert) 3:57, La bruja de la cosquilla (meringue expert) 4:40, La luz del flow (meringue / hip-hop expert) 3:51, Mawa sillah (calypso intermediate) 3:54, Mueve la cadera (meringue expert) 5:38, No quiero mas (salso intermediate) 2:57, Pa la discoteka (techno/cumbia expert) 4:13, Quiero volver a mis (bachata expert) 4:10, Sahara oasis (belly dance, cool down intermediate) 4:10, Sigue gozando con zumba (salsa expert) 4:05, Slide (warm-up intermediate) 3:12, Tu boquita (cumbia beginner) 4:50, Vamos DJ (conga/hip-hop expert) 5:04, Zocalypso (calypso, warm-up beginner) 5:35, Zumba lluvia (cool down expert) 4:06, Zumba mami (reggaeton beginner) 3:34, and Zumba sueno (salsa beginner) 4:37.

As you can see, you have a whole slew of different dances ranging from salsa to merengue to bellydancing to rumba, etc. etc.

Zumba Party is just like your typical Zumba class that you attend at the gym. It is either a 20 minute or 45 minute session that incorporates many different routines within that time frame. You can choose your difficulty level as well (beginner, intermediate, expert). Zumba Party is very intimidating because it's a very long session and it quickly jumps from one routine to another with somewhat abrupt transitions. If you don't know the steps, it can quickly become frustrating and makes it feel like you're flailing. Remember, to learn the steps, use the single routines. The single routines will also help you build up your fitness level and endurance since the single routines are only 2-4 minutes in length rather than almost nonstop 20 or 45 minutes. Once you do know the steps, the Zumba Party is fun but the steps are a problem since the tutorials are essentially broken. The goal of Zumba Party is to complete 10 classes from beginner to expert. Once you complete a skill level, it unlocks the next set of classes on your punchcard.

Now the single routines are where you really learn how to dance and it allows you to specifically dance the routines that you enjoy rather than a continuous jukebox of routines. The personal problem I have is the organization of the single routines. They are arranged not by difficulty or by style of dance. Rather, then are arranged by alphabetical order according to the Spanish words. So for example, if you just want to do calypso, you have to scroll through the entire list to get to Baila pa emociona (beginner), Mawa sillah (intermediate), and Zocalypso (warm-up beginner). I don't know Spanish so scrolling through a big list was not fun. And once you finish a routine, you are put all the way back at the beginning of the list ("Asalto") rather than at your last selected song.

Now, if you don't go online with Zumba Fitness, you have single player, cooperative players, Zumba Attack!, and 2p vs 2p available. Cooperative players is where you and a friend are dancing together and you share the energy bar and you have to work together to build it up. Zumba Attack! is similar to Dance Battles in Dance Central. You are alternating turns and whoever builds the highest energy bar wins. 2p vs. 2p is you have 2 teams of 2 players each. Whichever team builds the highest energy bar wins. One team performs a whole routine. Then the next team performs the whole routine.

So once you get tired of dancing Zumba Fitness all by yourself in your home or run out of friends to dance with, the major selling point of Xbox is the online community, Xbox Live. Zumba Fitness allows you to find other people dancing online. You can either create your own Zumba Dance party with up to 16 players or you can hop into someone else's party that's already going on. It's like going to the gym to dance with other people but not actually having to go to the gym. You can chat with each other via headsets as well which brings the communal aspect into play.

When I was testing the online for this review, I was playing Zumba Fitness on the west coast at 11PM. That's 2AM for people on the Least Coast. So you can imagine there aren't a lot of Zumba classes going on at 11PM or 2AM and it couldn't find any sessions for me to join. I tried other times such as 9:30PM Pacific time and was able to join a class. And once you join the class, it's pretty cool. Being able to chat and do Zumba with other people. Now, you can't see the other people (which is a good thing or bad thing depending on your perspective), but you can chat with each other. So my advice is to find some Zumba friends, get to know them, and set up regular Zumba parties rather than depend on randomly finding a class to join.

Okay, so let's summarize. I would rate this game somewhere between 3.5 stars and 4 stars. If the tutorials worked, it would definitely be a solid 4 stars. If you like Zumba, like Latin music, and can work without a great tutorial system, it's most definitely 4 stars. The game itself is nearly identical between the Wii, 360/Kinect, and Playstation Move so nearly all the comments here apply to all platforms. So whatever platform you have, Zumba Fitness is a good game. With the Kinect, you don't have to wear a belt, there's nothing to hold, and the motion detection is more accurate (check out the Wii and Move videos on youtube: with the belt system, all you have to do is shake the controller and you'll be green meaning you did the move "correctly"). The online community is a very cool touch and it's easier to find a Zumba class on the 360. Zumba for the Wii has up to 4 players whereas you can have up to 16 on the 360. If you're expecting Zumba Fitness to be Latin Dance Central, don't buy it. The music is Spanish and also very unfamiliar to English speakers. The beats are good and the melodies are interesting. But for most people, they won't recognize any of the music. I also have the Michael Jackson dance game for the Wii and I find Zumba Fitness for the Wii to be superior (I guess I don't like MJ songs that much and it's not really an exercise game). Now for those that must have comparisons, Dance Central is a far superior dance game with an outstanding tutorial mode. Plus, it has popular music that English speakers can easily recognize. But Dance Central doesn't have any nonstop jukebox mode so there are long pauses between songs as you select your songs whereas Zumba Fitness is almost nonstop (which is essential for a true workout). A Zumba session will have you sweating far more than Dance Central.

If you have any questions, hit me up and I'll do my best to answer them. Oh! forgot! there have been 2 updates to the Kinect version of the game, trying to fix some of the problems people had. If you do not have your 360 connected to the Internet, bring it to someone's house that does have the Internet and hook it up to update the game. The updates pretty much fix all the problems except for the bad tutorials. If you don't want to hook your 360 to the Internet for whatever reason, then send your disc back to Majesco and they'll send you a new disc that has the fixes built in. Go to the Majesco site for details.
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TOP 1000 REVIEWERon November 19, 2010
Everything Justin McNeal said in his review are the same issues we came across in our game. My fiancee is a Zumba instructor and she was extremely excited to get the game. I can't believe they released it in its state, it's complete garbage! DO NOT BUY
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on December 30, 2010
After sitting on the fence for weeks and reading reviews, I finally decided to give it a try. Most concerns, from reading the review seems to be related to lack of accurate tracking, I thought that in worst case I would use it as DVD, since I am interested in buying Zumba DVD but it cost more ($60+).

I have been taking Zumba classes for about 1/2 year and is very comfortable with Zumba in general. I followed suggestions from previous reviews to download updates first (from XBox Live), and this may have been key. I found the tracking to my body movements relatively accurate (compared to Dance Central which I also own and use). The color green, yellow, and red on body parts shows whether I am on track or not. There is actually a score at end of each dance (mine range from 300+ / expert to 500+ / zumba pro), the scoring is similar to Dance Central. I enjoy the Zumba music and like the fact that I can dance at home on snowy days or when I am not able to make to a class. The game experience is definitely from following a DVD. The tracking and responding to my movement actually exceeded my expectation (I assume the downloaded upgrade did the trick), perhaps because I started with low expectation (in worst case I will use it as DVD). Zumba does not have Dance Battle mode like Dance Central, but with the score from each dance you can track and compare with friends and achieve the same.

Pros: enjoyed the music and the dance, great level of exercise you get (in terms of calories burn). If you enjoy Zumba, you will enjoy this game for the same reason ("ditch the workout, join the party"). Compared to other Kinect games, I believe this one burns the most calorie (for me anyway).

Cons: it took me a while to get it started, the menu is very confusing, keeps getting me back to login or configuration, finally I realized I have to choose "done" and wait patiently till program starts (for a moment I thought I got exactly what some of the reviewers - a defective product, but it eventually worked). The navigation is not easy, it resets you back to first song after you finish each and when you navigate it moved way too fast before you can see what was skipped. There is no record keeping what you have done, therefore you are likely to repeat the same song. To Dance Central lovers, this can be a big disappointment.

I only got it yesterday but really enjoyed the dance and music as well as the exercise. I do like Dance Central a lot (and other Kinect games), but I enjoyed Zumba music and dance more. I did not use instruction mode or exercise mode yet. I am giving it a 4 star rating for the User Interface and menu control has much to improve, in my view.
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on December 3, 2010
I have never taken a Zumba class and this was my 6th Kinect game purchase.

Since Amazon's shipping of this title was delayed, I had the chance to read all of the other bad reviews on here and went back and forth on if I should return it and get my money back or get the Wii version or infomercial dvds instead. This was one I had really looked forward to and preordered. I love dance games and have about 7 versions of DDR, Dance Central, Dance Masters and others.

I didn't do the tutorials since I heard that was the worst part of the game. I wanted to just dive right in.

I don't like the menu interface, it can be a little buggy and you can't do the workout classes signed in as a guest.

Other reviewers were correct in that it doesn't give you specific instruction (i.e. lift your arms higher) and is more like an overpriced workout video, but I didn't experience the same problems as others such as being signed out while doing the spins.

It's a good workout and gets your heart rate up even on the beginner class.

Overall, I think the moves are fun and the music is great and upbeat, but I think it doesn't have enough variety to have a long lasting appeal. I'm still going to get the DVD set for more workouts to choose from.
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