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24 of 32 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars A Fun Read and a Valuable Tool for Conservatives, March 26, 2012
This review is from: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion (Hardcover)
This book is is a fun read for conservatives because it pokes more holes in liberalism than it does in conservatism. In that sense, some parts of this book are quite delicious.

But we conservatives are not without faults of our own, which can sometimes cause us to shoot ourselves in the foot in the political arena. The Righteous Mind is a great tool because it can help us not only to avoid some of those self-inflicted wounds, but also to understand and then express ourselves in ways that might resonate with even more of the electorate.

All of us - left, right, center, and in between - often experience an instant visceral reaction of like or dislike when we hear certain political viewpoints. Haidt has cracked the code of the evolutionary psychological underpinnings of those reactions. With that understanding comes the realization that the views of the other side are not "crazy," but are in fact based in something real and legitimate. Further, it might even help us to overcome some of our innate tendency to fight the other side just because it is the other side.

Haidt observes that we humans are unique in the animal kingdom in our ability to form ultra-social communities - in which individuals can number in the hundreds of thousands or more - and in which the individuals are not related by blood. Moral foundations evolved to help make that possible.

The first three foundations - care, fairness, and liberty - are focused on the individual; the bees in the hive of the non-kin community. The second three - loyalty, authority, and sanctity - are focused on binding those individuals together into a cooperative group; the hive.

Haidt has given us new definitions of liberalism and conservatism, backed up by extensive social science research and analysis: Liberalism is the morality of the first three foundations, and of those, mostly the first one. Conservatism is the morality of all foundations in roughly equal balance.

Herein lies the basis of a quibble I have with Haidt. He characterizes the tension between liberalism and conservatism as yin/yang. That doesn't seem right to me. It seems to me that the fundamental tension of yin/yang exists between the first three "individualizing" foundations and the last three "binding" foundations. We all love our individual freedom and autonomy, but binding individuals together into a group for our mutual benefit requires some amount of sacrifice of that autonomy. I submit that practically every form of government that has ever been tried has been an attempt to find the proper balance between the two, and a good historian who is well versed in Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory might be able to show this. But I digress. My quibble is this: I don't see how a morality that is defined by an already equal balance of the individualizing and binding foundations (i.e., conservatism) can be "balanced" in a yin/yang sort of way by an extra helping of the individualizing foundations (i.e., liberalism.) In fact, I would suggest that the "extra helping" upsets the balance, and tends to lead us more toward the "Pathological Altruism" Barbara Oakley describes in her book by that title. But then again, I see Haidt's point too. The present "culture war" is essentially a tug of war between liberalism and conservatism. Maybe we're both right, but in different contexts. Maybe Haidt is right if we look at a snapshot in time. Maybe I'm right if we look at the Gemeinschaft - Gesellschaft arc of how civilizations grow and mature; the six foundations, working in concert, make civilization possible, which in turn affords its citizens the luxury of turning inward toward the individualizing foundations and "forgetting" the binding ones. I don't think the binding foundations actually become less important to the health of the community, I think they only appear less important to those who are predisposed to the liberal morality. Thus forms the political divide.

A second quibble I have with Haidt has to do with his conclusion that liberals "care" about other people a little bit more than conservatives do. The measures of care he uses are all focused on the kind of care that is directed at the individual (e.g., The Interpersonal Reactivity Index, or IRI). But isn't ensuring a healthy hive also a form of care? Isn't respect for authority and the social order a form of care? Isn't loyalty to the group a form of care? Isn't a respect for "clean living" and treating the body as a temple (i.e., the sanctity foundation) a form of care? I submit that they are. Further, how does the liberal morality of "no harm, no foul," and the outlook of "my body is an amusement park" equate to "caring," or to protecting the weak? I submit that they do not. In fact, I submit they are the opposite. Haidt's measures of care essentially define helf of conservatism out of the discussion. Is it any wonder then that he concludes that liberals "care" more?

A third quibble is Haidt's suggestion to liberals that they would fare better in elections if they could do a better job of framing their views in terms of the loyalty, authority, and sacredness. That strikes me as a little bit like asking a leopard to change its spots. If they did that, and actually believed it and meant it, then they wouldn't be leopards, or liberals, would they?

But as I said, these are quibbles, and I don't want to overemphasize them. That would be like complaining about the wine selection in the first class cabin of a luxury airliner after receiving the tickets for free. Haidt has given us The Rosetta Stone for understanding the political divide, and it would be unwise if we let our quibbles get in the way of our grasp of the big picture he is showing to us.

Haidt finds that people form into groups when they share sacred values. Here "sacred" does not necessarily mean religious. It simply means beliefs that are held to be inviolable by the members of the group. When those beliefs are challenged or undermined we rise to their defense unquestioningly, and even (or especially) irrationally. This irrational defense of sacred values contributes to the culture war and, I believe, is where both sides make their mistakes. We dig in our heels and fight the other side just because it is the other side.

I believe it is safe to conclude from Haidt's work that one of the sacred values of liberalism is reason; the power of the human mind to overcome obstacles and solve problems through logical thought. Reason alone is sufficient to understand and internalize the moral foundations of liberalism. The argument in their favor essentially boils down to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This argument makes sense on its face. It is direct, uncomplicated, and powerful. It is not a great stretch of the imagination to understand why some might see reason alone, and its logical extension through "do unto others," to the first three moral foundations, as sufficient in and of itself to form the basis of a political philosophy, even to the point of being dismissive of, or at least finding unnecessary, the three remaining moral foundations.

I think a sacred value of conservatism is experience; the lessons learned through the hard knocks of every-day life. Experience is manifested - to varying degrees - in the notions of loyalty, authority, and sanctity which are embraced equally, along with the first three foundations, by conservatism. The argument in favor of these foundations boils down to "these have been shown to work." Group behavior, for example, exhibits the collected wisdom of all persons within the group over the entire duration of its existence, possibly spanning multiple generations or even centuries. To be a part of a group, then, is to stand on the shoulders, so to speak, of all who came before, and to band together in defense of the group when a threat to it is perceived - thus the "one for all, all for one" sensibility of loyalty. The respect for traditions and social systems of authority, and even the value placed on clean living through the sanctity foundation, I believe similarly reflect, on the part of conservatives, an instinctive, intuitive, possibly even subconscious, respect for, and internalization of, the collected wisdom of experience.

In this way, I believe, it is not traditions, customs, institutions, and laws (i.e., the "status quo") per se which conservatism seeks to preserve, it is the collected wisdom of experience which those things represent. This explains why conservatism can seek to preserve different things at different times and in different cultures and still be consistent with itself; the local cultural collected wisdom is different.

We conservatives make mistakes when we forget the lessons of experience and the balance of all six foundations, and let the irrational commitment to some of our other sacred values, like the free market, hold sway. This is not to say that a defense of the free market is wrong, it is only a reminder not to forget the lessons of experience and the balance, as in "check and balance," among all the foundations which defines conservatism. Traditions, customs, institutions, and laws usually come into existence as remedies or preventives against something bad that happened, and we change them at our peril.

Case in point: The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act. The Glass-Steagall Act was a direct result of the experience of The Great Depression. It limited affiliations between commercial banks and securities firms. Its repeal during the Clinton administration was a contributing factor to the current economic crisis. Rather than supporting the free market side of the argument for its repeal, conservatism, rightly understood (in this writer's personal opinion) should have stood in defense of experience, and balance among all the moral foundations, saying "no, no, no."

Chapter Eight of The Righteous Mind is called "The Conservative Advantage," which is the ability of conservatives to speak to, and resonate with, all of the moral foundations. By identifying exactly what those foundations are, Haidt gives us a virtual formula for continued, and even increased electoral success, which in my interpretation is this: stop shooting ourselves in the foot by going "tribal" with our sometimes irrational defense of sacred values, and be ever mindful of the lessons of experience and the maintenance of an equal balance among all the moral foundations.

I honestly believe that Haidt's work can help people of all political stripes make inroads into increasing communication and understanding not only across the political aisle, but also within our own camps. And who knows what may happen then, perhaps a little more civility in political debates? Stranger things have happened.
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Showing 1-10 of 95 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Mar 27, 2012 12:07:11 PM PDT
Oy vey!

Posted on Mar 28, 2012 5:45:52 PM PDT
Sanpete says:
Wow, quite a review! Interesting comments. I have some ideas about the quibbles.

On your first quibble, the yin/yang idea might not sum up all the ways liberals and conservatives complement each other, but it works well for one of the main aspects of conservatism that you speak of, the part conservatism takes its name from. Due to some peculiarities in how the moral foundations are chosen, the liberal counterpart to the impulse to preserve the wisdom of the ages, as you might put it, isn't counted as a moral foundation, but it's correlated with a well studied personality trait, called "openness" for short. It includes openness to new ideas and such. Liberals generally score high on openness. Yin/yang is a fair way to refer to the tension between the conservative impulse to preserve and the liberal impulse to change.

As I understand it, the care foundation is centered on empathy, so maintaining the hive and so on may or may not be due to care of that sort. To the extent it is, it should also be reflected in the Moral Foundations test answers for the care foundation, I suppose. At least in theory!

Some liberals, like Bill Clinton, appeal to all the moral foundations quite naturally, so it's not necessarily a matter of changing spots for liberals to do that. Keep in mind that liberals do use all six foundations to some extent, but the last three significantly less than conservatives do, and they are actually often suspicious of those foundations in a general way. But they do appeal to them too in particular ways. An example would be a liberal feeling nature is sacred, which is fairly common.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 29, 2012 7:26:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 29, 2012 8:50:43 AM PDT
Thanks for your thoughts Sanpete! Sorry for the length of this reply. I just don't seem to be able to keep things short and sweet.

I see Haidt's point in all cases, and yours as well, and I think you're both right. I don't see my quibbles as having an either/or relationship with the things Haidt or you are saying (as in either you're right, or I am, but not both). Rather, I think there's ALSO merit to my ideas, and I think there's room for them within the overall construct of Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory. I wish to build on his ideas, not to tear them down. I agree with the New York Times review of the book, which said it is "A landmark contribution to humanity's understanding of itself."

I offer my Gemeinschaft-Gesselshaft idea as a way to possibly reconcile my yin/yang idea with his. Using America as an example; I think the U.S. was founded on the ideas of classical liberalism, which are roughly speaking the yin/yang balance between the individualizing foundations and the binding foundations (i.e., conservatism) that I talked about. The progressive era and the New Deal came along, and then the progressiveness of the 1960s, which pulled the country to the left, away from the balance, and the classical liberals responded, trying to restore the balance, by pulling harder to the right, which results in Haidt's version of yin/yang.

I think you're right in your assessment of the care foundation, and that maintaining the hive probably does not fit with that sort of care. I also understand the evolutionary origins of the kind of care Haidt is talking about. We humans have to care for our young for a very long time, relative to other species, before we kick them out of the nest, and I think the care foundation comes mostly from that. Further, I also appreciate that Haidt emphasizes that the difference between liberals and conservatives when it comes to the care foundation is a relatively small one, so maybe my quibble could be interpret not even as quibble, but more like hair splitting. But again, I think there's room for the kind of care I'm talking about. Haidt says we're ninety percent chimp and ten percent bee, so shouldn't caring for the hive count for SOMETHING? Isn't the personal sacrifice one makes by giving up some amount of personal autonomy, and suppressing some amount of selfishness through respect for authority and loyalty to the hive a form of altruism (parochial altruism, Haidt would say)? Isn't that "care?"

You're also right that liberals do use the binding foundations to some extent. Nothing's totally either black or white. I think very few liberals would rate the importance of any foundation at a flat zero. But once again, I also think there's merit to my point about spot changing too. Unlike the care foundation, the difference between liberals and conservatives on the binding foundations is quite large. Liberals may be able to do a better job of describing their policy prescriptions in terms of the binding foundations, but I still think that if they actually believed in those foundations - if liberals actually enjoyed the "cuisine" of conservatism, to use Haidt's taste analogy - then they wouldn't be liberals. And if they DON'T actually believe in those foundations and are instead simply using them to "frame" their arguments then the transparency of that approach, and the disingenuousness of it, will show. It reminds me of a line from the old TV show M*A*S*H, in which Hawkeye Pierce says "Sincerity, I can fake that!" No. No, you can't. It's about morality, not terminology. No matter what words you use, your morality shows. You can't hide it. A leopard can't become a lion by painting over its spots.

Haidt talked about this in a recent talk he gave which I attended. He said that if liberals try to show that they do in fact believe in the loyalty foundation by saying "Support our troops. Bring them home alive," all they're really doing is demonstrating to conservatives that they "don't get it." Loyalty, rightly understood, means giving the troops everything they need to win. Liberals can TRY to frame their arguments in terms of the binding foundations in the hope of appealing to conservatives, but if they don't do it very carefully it will backfire.

Posted on Mar 29, 2012 11:02:16 AM PDT
Scott Wagner says:
This very nice idea- thought-provoking:

We conservatives make mistakes when we forget the lessons of experience and the balance of all six foundations, and let the irrational commitment to some of our other sacred values, like the free market, hold sway. This is not to say that a defense of the free market is wrong, it is only a reminder not to forget the lessons of experience and the balance, as in "check and balance," among all the foundations which defines conservatism.

A really excellent point, one that addresses well why liberals react on the harm/care scale very negatively in such situations, because losing this conservative balance you describe typically means strong negative implications to the little guy they care about so much, as well as, commonly, authoritarian imbalances they hate almost as much. Russell Kirk's "10 Conservative Principles" is very useful precisely because it says this, though it's less clear because he's not embedding the balance idea in a moral setting like you are here.

To elaborate on your yin-yang point: I agree that the yin-yang aspect of moral theory is a bit muddled, due to the the model specification, which includes shared traits, implying a parent-child relationship, not a yin-yang one. I've had to wrestle with this a lot, and veer a bit from Haidt in modeling the primary ideological difference as exception-centric vs process-centric, which maps well to these morals but is a bit more reductionist. It ties in with both personality theory (especially Colin DeYoung's work) and neurology (particularly V. Ramachandran), and is well elaborated in a social (not political) setting by Iain McGilchrist, a brilliant literature scholar cum psychiatrist/neurologist in his work "The Master and His Emissary" (highly recommended). This view reflects in large measure how our right and left brain hemispheres operate (different modules clumped together, different neuronal mix, different chemicals). It is a notion of e pluribus unum, specialty/optimization for the one, of which the first specialization is the brain lateralization of almost all complex biological cognitive systems. (from here on out, Gordon, I'm exaggerating here and there for effect) Liberals, who are not literally right-brained but who take personality inspiration from the visual- and gestalt-centric bag of tools on the right, are obsessed with exceptions that need to be handled (visual skill is about fine change discrimination), have little sense of practicality (practicality is mediated by the left hemisphere), because right-brain technique is about highlighting and finding, which is a very specialized, very difficult thing to do correctly (think facial recognition, spatial manipulation, trail changing in the dark). Conservatives (again, not literally left-brained) favor left-brained model orientation as an organizing principle to stay focused on process, which is essential for maintenance of successful patterns in society: their primary role in society is to be about the difficult business of doing life right, day in and day out, utilizing patterns/traditions/good stereotypes, and inhibiting too much dangerous influence and distraction from useless or dangerous irrelevancies (exceptions, i.e., new risky stuff, minor ways things don't work right, foment, etc.). In that context, yin-yang, the notion of irreconcilable opposites that are interconnected, plays out both in the brain and ideologically as different strengths answering different needs, forced to work together to get anything useful done. To grossly stereotype again, one is needed for brainstorming, obsessed with things that are new/cool, incongruent/asymmetrical, with imaginative application of intellect as a mediator; the other is needed for maintenance, obsessed with keeping important, complex patterns running correctly, and associated with dutifulness, constancy, all mediated by practical application of the intellect. Haidt doesn't get into it, but there are 4 distinct personality characteristics (in a "Big 5" personality context) that show this difference well to be well thought of as a bit yin-yang.

This neurological metaphor (it really shouldn't be ground in too hard as anything else at this point) helps clarify the natural roles we have in society, and should also hint at the statistical weaknesses that we should at least recognize, if not address.

Which leads to my final point: I disagree with your 'leopard changing spots' intimation in an important sense: I contend that the whole point of getting this out there is to help people utilize a model of life that promotes fundamental change in their outlook, behaviors, and communication. Other than your excellent point above, Haidt's work purposefully doesn't illustrate clearly how conservatives should work on themselves, because the focus is on broadening moral imperatives: conservatives can look to many other sources, including the rich implications for conservative change in the above, more reductionist model. But Haidt's work is not at all in line with your speculations regarding liberals trying to fit in, or appear xxx: he is crystal clear that liberals should try different behaviors and perspectives, leveraging their purported fascination with newness etc. to, say, go to church (oh no!), or join a book club, or arrange to do charity locally, or reframe issues using a broader viewpoint for once, or do any of a thousand things to start to leverage the well-explicated advantages of inculcating a broader value set, because personality disadvantages are costing them. I fundamentally believe in the ability for liberals to change their spots, and I have seen the impact of these principles in liberal lives already. Huge changes? Who knows? Who cares? Doing what we can is the point. Even small improvements, in my opinion, can make a difference in the ideological divide. These big ideas are optimal change agents for leopards everywhere.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 30, 2012 9:54:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 30, 2012 10:23:00 AM PDT
I really like your yin/yang discussion. You are much better informed on the personality aspects of it than I am. I'm just a layman who likes to read this stuff. Your references amount to a great reading list for me. There's lots more for me to learn. And, from what I've been able to gather so far, your point about conservatives being process oriented and liberals being exception oriented fits very well with my understanding of the differences between the two. Walter Williams frames it in layman's terms using the analogy of a poker game. Summarizing, in my own words:

If I play in a regular weekly poker game and I lose every time, but everyone has followed the rules and nobody has cheated, then to a conservative the game is "fair." That's the process orientation. But a liberal might think that because the other people in the game are so much better at it than I am, such that I have practically no chance of ever winning, the game is NOT "fair." That's the exception, or results, orientation.

I also heartily agree with your sentiment here: "I fundamentally believe in the ability for liberals to change their spots, and I have seen the impact of these principles in liberal lives already. Huge changes? Who knows? Who cares? Doing what we can is the point. Even small improvements, in my opinion, can make a difference in the ideological divide."

I think you and I are mostly on the same page on this. It seems that our differences, if we really have any, are differences of degree. Nothing's purely black or white, and I suspect that the locations where each of us draws the line within the large grey area in the middle are not all that far apart. I don't mean to imply that liberals (or anyone) cannot change their spots AT ALL, I just mean that most of us can't change them drastically.

Chapter 3 of The Righteous Mind, called "Elephants are Sometimes Open to Reason" describes how the change can happen. It's not a liberal thing or a conservative thing, it's a human thing. People do learn and grow and are (sometimes) open to the ideas of others. Nurture absolutely affects who we are, which can change with time and experience, from the influence of others, and from our own introspection.

But nature also has a great effect. There really is a genetic component to the wiring which predisposes each of us to be liberal, conservative, or something else. I think your yin/yang discussion of personality traits supports this idea. What is the likelihood that a person whose brain is wired to be exception oriented will suddenly switch to a process orientation? Not very great, I'd venture. Identical twins separated at birth and brought up in different cultural environments, one staunch liberal and one staunch conservative, usually end up having very similar political world views upon reaching adulthood regardless of which environment they grew up in.

It would be terrific if liberals could embrace the binding foundations in their morality and assimilate them into their world view to a greater degree than they do. If Moral Foundations really are products of natural selection as Haidt indicates they are, then they probably exist for a good reason. That reason is most likely that they help us to see and react to real world threats to our individual and collective health and well being. The more of those foundations we use, both individually and collectively, the more likely we are to choose a path which more effectively avoids the threats and thus results in a better quality of life for everyone.

But I just don't see that happening to a major degree. It's just not reasonable to expect a dyed in the wool liberal to become a dyed in the wool conservative (although it does sometimes happen; I'm thinking David Horowitz) or vice versa. The best that can be reasonably expected is for an elephant to adjust the path it's already on somewhat to the left or right, as Haidt has done in his move from liberal to centrist. It is a rare exception for someone to jump to a whole different path like Horowitz did. (And wouldn't THAT phenomenon be a great thing to study?)

So I am totally on board with the way you expressed your view of spot changing.

But I also stand by the sentiments I'm trying to express. Our morality shows, and it's difficult for us to change or hide the core essence of what we really are. Liberals can TRY to frame their arguments in terms of the binding foundations in the hope of appealing to conservatives, but if they don't do it very carefully it will backfire as Haidt illustrated in his lecture.

All of which means this statement of yours is also spot on: "Doing what we can is the point. Even small improvements, in my opinion, can make a difference in the ideological divide."

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 30, 2012 12:15:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 30, 2012 12:18:16 PM PDT
Re: "Russell Kirk's "10 Conservative Principles" is very useful precisely because it says this, though it's less clear because he's not embedding the balance idea in a moral setting like you are here."

Kirk didn't have the benefit of Haidt's research. If he had, he might have embedded the balance.

This goes to one of my points: Haidt offers conservatives a better understanding of OURSELVES, which leads us, well me anyway, to a new, more accurate (in my humble opinion) definition of conservatism:

Conservatism is the morality of equal balance among all of the moral foundations, in which the individualizing foundations are "checked and balanced" by the binding foundations.

It has always been a core tenet of conservatism that with liberty comes responsibility. Now Haidt has shown us the psychological reasons why.

And we can use that knowledge to guide us in our decision making and shape conservatism to be more "true to itself" in the future by seeking ways to implement that balance in our public policy decisions and prescriptions. Hopefully, we can also use it to resist the temptation to become a "tribal moral community" (as Haidt has explained) and in this way to work toward shrinking the political divide, which can only benefit everyone.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 31, 2012 9:44:12 AM PDT
Sanpete says:
TIW, I didn't really respond to the heart of your first quibble.

I think you hit on a good point that on its face, if conservatives draw in a balanced way from all six foundations, it makes no sense to try to balance conservatives by adding less balanced liberals.

Haidt gives reasons each foundation is useful, but that doesn't imply each one is equally important to human nature, or to the kind of life we'd like to have. It's entirely possible that the ideal balance of the foundations isn't one where they're equally represented. As I mentioned above, there's also the problem that what I think ought to be treated as a foundation, openness, isn't counted, and there are other foundations that might need to be considered. (Several others have been put under study by Haidt and his colleagues.)

So it could be that the idea of conservatives having a balanced set of foundations is misleading in this context. That Haidt argues they need to be balanced with liberals appears to imply it is. It's less misleading in the context he calls attention to, that conservatives tend to use and respond to a broader array of foundations.

As for whether we've got the right balance between individualizing and binding values, I think you're right the needs of the culture vary with the times. We value liberty, but in times of emergency, we may give up a great deal of it. If there's an ideal balance for "normal" times, it's hard to give objective criteria for what it would be.

On quibble 2, all of the foundations are values and thus are care about what's valued. In my review I call the care foundation care about others to try to convey that it's a specific kind of care, not care in general.

You're right that liberals and conservatives do have different spots, as it were, and that simply trying to appeal to foundations they don't have a feel for in the context they're talking about won't work. But liberals can gain a greater appreciation for their own use of the foundations they use less, and for their value in other contexts. It's interesting that Haidt no longer self-identifies as a liberal, but now calls himself a centrist, maybe in part because his spots changed so much he became a different critter. On the other hand, he singles out the Republican Party for particular criticism. Bill Clinton is considered a centrist by some too. I think both remain left of center, but with a robust appreciation of conservatism.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 31, 2012 9:46:31 AM PDT
Sanpete says:
James, reacting to the end of your post, it's interesting that the book seems to be primarily addressed to liberals, with more attention to ways they can understand and appreciate conservatives than vice versa. The arguments also stress premises more likely to be accepted by liberals, heavy on evolution and moral subjectivity.

As far as I know, Haidt hasn't said why the book's that way, but a few possibilities are suggested in the book and elsewhere. He cites evidence that conservatives already understand liberals better than vice versa, so maybe he thinks liberals need more help. (On the other hand, he also points out that conservatives tend to be more clannish and less willing to compromise and cooperate, suggesting they need some work too.)

I think a more likely explanation is that this book is largely based on Haidt's own experience and reflections, and since he was a liberal reacting against his own mistakes, and the mistakes he see in his profession dominated by liberals, that's the primary perspective of the book.

It would probably take a conservative to write a book like this aimed more at conservatives, calling them to their own special form of repentance.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 31, 2012 3:24:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 31, 2012 3:27:23 PM PDT
Scott Wagner says:
Thanks for your thoughts! I agree with you: the evolution of Haidt's thinking and especially his attitude seems pretty clear from his writings , a movement from a more cautious, translative and apologetic tone that mostly targeted liberals, to this more explicit advocacy of conservative strengths and the overall model (broad morality) to a broader audience. Feels right to me- clear and bold. Some of the responses to reviews whine about the absence of conservative problems, but I say go pick up any liberal rag if you want that- this research is only tangentially related. There's rich research elsewhere of that you can only miss by trying hard.

Your last point is one I have had to think about a lot. Outgroup bias limits the ability to listen outside the group. Insiders critique correctly, especially important with conservatives, like a conservative environmental group I know does: tiny step by tiny step. Probably within individual subjects. Any effective feedback to conservatives needs to be gentle, almost exclusively tactical, and by an insider who can be framed as a practical advisor. Sen. Danforth's last book is a wonderful example of this, but his book was probably read by 4 people. 20 such books are much less important than this one. Good conservative reform will happen through emotion-based movements based on simple ideas, as usual, which feels right to me. We liberals badly needed a science-based clarity on weaknesses: conservatives already had it. I see any intellect-based conservative reform through the usual intermittent good right-center arguments- again, small and tactical, by respected voices. No conservative can do an equivalent to Haidt's book, not one that'd be read: not only because much of the science is known, straightforward, and mostly ignored already, but also because the writer would vault herself into the outgroup with the marketing effort. Mostly liberals would read it, they'd breathlessly quote from it, conservatives would call her an idiot or worse, and the poor thing would commit seppuku after a couple of weeks of liberals singing her praises on her lawn.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2012 4:30:10 PM PDT
I liked what you said here:

"So it could be that the idea of conservatives having a balanced set of foundations is misleading in this context. That Haidt argues they need to be balanced with liberals appears to imply it is. It's less misleading in the context he calls attention to, that conservatives tend to use and respond to a broader array of foundations."

You hit the nail on the head! You then made a good point in following this comment with the issue of it being hard to find objective criteria in terms of an ideal balance. Whose ideal are we supposed to be balanced toward? An ideal balance between liberals and conservatives is probably an ideal held neither by liberals nor conservatives.
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