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Customer Review

301 of 368 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Bad CMA Design, February 23, 2012
Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Kidde KN-COPP-B-LPM Battery-Operated Carbon Monoxide Alarm with Digital Display (Tools & Home Improvement)
There is no doubt that short and long term Carbon Monoxide exposure can cause brain damage and/or death.

A Carbon Monoxide Alarm (CWA)detector is even required in all homes in my state of Pennsylvania and many other as well; yet I know of no one who has one in their home here. So, after getting a new HVAC system I thought the time had come to be the first one on at least my block to break down and get a CMA.

A small number of other Amazon Customers have reported (one star) that their Kidde CMA demonstrated random readings,
Unfortunately, mine did as well.
Readings of 22-29 ppm were always the readings in my house for two days.
I then took it outside for a day and it produced the same readings!
This is not acceptable to me since 22-29 ppm are either definitely problematic or at least close to it, as follows:

[OSHA PEL] The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for carbon monoxide is 50 parts per million (ppm) parts of air (55 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3))) as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) concentration [29 CFR Table Z-1].

[NIOSH REL] The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has established a recommended exposure limit (REL) for carbon monoxide of 35 ppm (40 mg/m(3)) as an 8-hour TWA and 200 ppm (229 mg/m(3)) as a ceiling [NIOSH 1992]. The NIOSH limit is based on the risk of cardiovascular effects.

[ACGIH TLV] The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned carbon monoxide a threshold limit value (TLV) of 25 ppm (29 mg/m(3)) as a TWA for a normal 8-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek [ACGIH 1994, p. 15]. The ACGIH limit is based on the risk of elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels [ACGIH 1].

Therefore, an actual/theoretical (relatively) small leak of 22-29 ppm could be harmful be over time.
But, if readings of 22-29 are this units "zero point" then how would I know?
Why have this unit!? Not good.

So, I sent this "Kidde" back (for free) and exchanged it (Love Amazon!) for a "ProTech 7035 Lithium Battery Powered Carbon Monoxide Detector with Digital Display and Memory". This unit has a safer/lower sensitivity level of 10ppm (Not apparently 30ppm or more.) which, now that I have looked into it, is as low as I can find for under ~$700 or so!

Yes, the ProTech costs twice as much as the original Kidde; but only that...The reason is that it works on a different, more efficient and accurate principle (and is, of course, more expensive) than the Kidde.

At least for me and my family, I look forward to receiving it.
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Tracked by 11 customers

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Showing 1-10 of 52 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Mar 18, 2012 6:36:58 PM PDT
BC says:
I was just curious about your comment that they are required in PA, as I can't find anything online that verifies that. I found plenty of information about the legislation being considered, but even on a list of states requiring carbon monoxide detectors, Pennsylvania is absent.

Not that they aren't a good idea, especially in the state with the most carbon monoxide-related deaths.

Now, what about in 100% electric residences with no attached or nearby garage?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 19, 2012 11:06:00 AM PDT
Dr. Rich B says:
Thanks for your interest. It is not easy to find...so people do not know!
Very GOOD and relatively recent reference for whole US, including PA is at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-11-28/carbon-monoxide/51450082/1

Best regards and thanks again for your inquiry.
DrRichB

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 19, 2012 11:39:43 AM PDT
Dr. Rich B says:
In regards to your question:
"...what about 100% electric residences with no attached or nearby garage?"
Well, consider what happened to a friend of mine...He left his Honda Gas Lawn Mower running in one spot next to
just a very slightly open window on first floor of his house and his detector in the basement picked it up and went crazy.
Remember this stuff is invisible and odorless AND can apparently TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES...
However, in the end, it is will always be up to your judgement how safe you need/want to be...
My preference just is to have my family as safe as they can be...

Similarly, I also have in my basement a double radon pickup/roof fan with two real-time 24 hr. illuminated digital monitors/alarms (in basement and upper 3rd. story) just because of an initial reading of ~28ppm.
All my friends say I am crazy to spend this kind of money for this; but, I now have a reading of no greater than 0.9 where >4.0 is quite problematic. To me it seems OK to me to spend money to acquire safety and health! Better than gambling...
Thanks again,
DrRichB

Posted on Sep 20, 2012 9:04:16 PM PDT
Regular CO detectors alarm you at 400ppm.
Just FYI

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 21, 2012 7:51:20 AM PDT
Dr. Rich B says:
Actually, they are a little more complicated than that:

Underwriters Laboratories Inc.'s standard UL2034 requires residential CO alarms to sound when CO exposure limits and times are reached. They are measured in parts per million (ppm) of CO over time (in minutes). UL2034 requires that alarm points are as follows:

* If the alarm is exposed to 400 ppm of CO it must alarm between 4 and 15 minutes after initial exposure
* If the alarm is exposed to 150 ppm of CO it must alarm between 10 and 50 minutes after initial exposure
* If the alarm is exposed to 70 ppm of CO it must alarm between 60 and 240 minutes after initial exposure

When carbon monoxide (CO) binds with hemoglobin in the lungs' red blood cells, it's called carboxyhemoglobin (COHb). Measuring COHb in the bloodstream reveals the level of CO exposure a person has had. It is important to remember that CO alarms are designed to sound before there is an immediate life threat: an exposure to 100 ppm of CO for 20 minutes may not affect healthy adults, but after four hours the same level may cause headaches; an exposure to 400 ppm of CO may cause headaches in healthy adults after 35 minutes, but it can cause death after two hours.

RB

Posted on Nov 25, 2012 12:11:07 PM PST
james says:
great to have someone willing to take time to share safety information! lives are on the line.

Posted on Nov 25, 2012 9:12:30 PM PST
You mention that you eventually replaced the Kidde with the ProTech 7035. I haven't been able to find any reputable 3rd-party information about either this detector or the company. The Amazon reviews for the ProTech read like typical company sponsored reviews as well (where a company pays people to purchase and review their product - yes it happens all the time). I'm curious if what independent reviews you have found and if you could possibly point me in that direction.

Posted on Nov 29, 2012 10:19:36 AM PST
Eric says:
I have looked at the manual for the ProTech 7035 and it's response time to alarm is 60-240 min @ 70 ppm. This is the lowest alarm threshold that both products are designed to operate. Nobody is going to make an alarm that sounds at levels lower than this due to the high number of false alarms that would result. Both products are marketed as carbon monoxide alarms, not meters. The specifications of the Protech shows a an meter tolerance of +-15% at 40-600 ppm. In other words, Protech makes no claims on the ability of the device to accurately measure levels below 40 ppm. If you are looking for a device that is certified to measure levels below 40 ppm then buy a calibrated carbon monoxide meter.

Posted on Mar 2, 2013 4:53:40 PM PST
sharky says:
Maybe Dr. Rich B is a plant for the company that makes the Protech.....

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 4, 2013 2:15:53 PM PST
Dr. Rich B says:
You are really reaching low now...Nothing else to say? Really?
In science the best universally accepted tool for finding the Truth is through the replication (sameness) of data in the hands of different users..
Seems like the only way you fellas are going to figure this one out to your satisfaction is to buy different units (whatever the brand/model!) and perform some real-life home-based tests...
This is so easy to do, just be careful not to kill yourself(s).
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