This is a topic I have not seen mentioned. This is for those who feel that "all is one", "everything is connected", or "God/Creator is all." If everything is connected, and all is one, and that one is God/Creator, then it would stand that God/Creator is both the murderer and the murdered, the killer and the killed, the perpetrator and the victim. This woud also support the words of Biblical Jesus in that we are to "Love your brother as yourself" because we are all one. If I love my brother, I am loving myself. If I kill my brother I am killing myself. But, does it really matter if I love my brother or kill him if all is one and that one is God/Creator who in effect is me, the lover or the murderer; the loved or the murdered? And to throw another wrench into the works, if I don't have free will because God/Creator is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient and I murder someone, why should I be judged for it when the murder was not of my will because all is one, and that one is God/Creator? Biblical Jesus again says,"Do not judge, or you too will be judged" which would indicate that to judge another would be to judge myself because we are all one. So, it is my belief that God is both the murderer and the murdered, I have no free will to choose to be the murderer or the murdered, and that there is no cause for judgement because it will always be me judging me, me murdering me, and me having no free will over any of it because all is one, and that one is God/Creator. So, does life, or death, even matter, especially when the Spirit/Soul is eternal and does not die?
Oh wow that's very poetic even though you didn't me to be.
There a couple of takes on the god is one theme, mine is the essence of god if There is a one before all. the all must have brought forth from itself to create. So everything is of the stuff of god. As for consciousness there is the ego(pretender), then individual-true self then the ONE, higher self, I AM, connection to "god".
What you're talking about....ummmm....God is playing the part of everything and everyone, consciously...there is that theory but I don't see it. You should watch the movie "The NINES"
Good question though, been through it myself. Better to figure that one out for yourself though. I don't believe in hell so...I wouldn't even send stalin or hitler to hell for an eternity. Without evil there can be no righteous man maybe. Really too late for me to want to get into specifics but that was a good question.
"Murder" is a judicial term. When a government executes a "murderer" it is performing an execution, not murder. Murder is when one human takes the life of another human, outside the boundaries of the law.
Since God is not human but is soveriegn, and is the definor of "murder", he cannot himself commit murder. He can execute. And has done so. He has also witheld execution for murder when the penalty had not yet been established (Cain, Genesis 4)
Since mankind is responsible for holding to God's mandate, and Jesus was judicially acquitted by the legal Roman authority of any wrongdoing, they crucified an innocent man. It still wasn't murder since the Romans had the authority of execution. Governments execute innocent people all the time. (See Saddam, See Hitler, See Stalin, See Pol Pot)
Your misconception is no different than if you were to catch a kid "stealing" your child's bicycle, only to discover that your child had given them permission to ride it. It's not theft if it's within the boundary of permission.
And governmental execution is within the boundary of God's permission - since he himself established human government with the death penalty as the foundation. (Genesis 9)
You're outta your mind. Where do you people come up with these screwed up visions of god? All loving and Judge? One is of the heart the other is not only of the mind but the EGO. You punish a child because he disobeys not for his ACTIONS, because he disobeyed and hurt your sorry ego, same with Samael (blind God) of the OT God said you will die if you eat the fruit, Adam thinks jeez I shouldn't I will just drop dead. GOD KNOWS ADAM THINKS IMMEDIATELY. And the bringer of light tells otherwise and what do you know he doesn't drop dead. You follow the father of lies and A blind god leading the blind. WAKE UP. Your false god's EGO is hurt so he has to kill his son to save face. That abomination was NEVER Christ's father. You pervert his message and are blind to a god that is inside and all around you. He is NO burning bush, he is NO magician, he is no HE no SHE you're angry papa is only what you wish you can be projected OUT THERE! Keep your miracles keep your idolatry keep your death. Peace...................................................................OUT
Seven Lights says: Nothing quite like a "Pot Meet Kettle" moment of irony from a mindless, hash-head, bible thumper...
I Dunn: Come on SL you can do better than that, try a bit harder.
I. Dunn says: You should sober up before posting.
Sarah: Thank you for setting the standard, I. Dunn, for lame, boring insults. And sneering at other people's far more colorful creative efforts is so... sour grapes.
" The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. " Archilochus (7th-century b.c.e.)
I think much of this has been sorted through long ago in India and pre-socratic Greece. Basically your puting the Hedge Hog on top of the Fox { also the title of an essay Isiah Berlin wrote contrasting different types of writers and analysing Tolstoy's controversial theory of history } Ancient Indian cosmology presents the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva:
Shiva is : " He is both static and dynamic and is both creator and destroyer. He is the oldest and the youngest, he is the eternal youth as well as the infant. He is the source of fertility in all living beings. He has gentle as well as fierce forms. He is omnipresent and resides in everyone as pure consciousness." Owing to His cosmic activity of dissolution and recreation, the words destroyer and destruction have been erroneously associated with Lord Shiva. This difficulty arises when people fail to grasp the true significance of His cosmic role. The creation sustains itself by a delicate balance between the opposing forces of good and evil. When this balance is disturbed and sustenance of life becomes impossible, Lord Shiva dissolves the universe for creation of the next cycle so that the unliberated souls will have another opportunity to liberate themselves from bondage with the physical world. Thus, Lord Shiva protects the souls from pain and suffering that would be caused by a dysfunctional universe. In analogous cyclic processes, winter is essential for spring to appear and the night is necessary for the morning to follow. To further illustrate, a goldsmith does not destroy gold when he melts old irreparable golden jewelry to create beautiful new ornaments. "
And then there is Emerson's Brahma : Brahma If the red slayer think he slays, Or if the slain think he is slain, They know not well the subtle ways I keep, and pass, and turn again.
Far or forgot to me is near, Shadow and sunlight are the same, The vanished gods to me appear, And one to me are shame and fame.
They reckon ill who leave me out; When me they fly, I am the wings; I am the doubter and the doubt, And I the hymn the Brahmin sings.
The strong gods pine for my abode, And pine in vain the sacred Seven; But thou, meek lover of the good! Find me, and turn thy back on heaven. 1856 [1857]
And then we have the old quarell between Heraclitus and Parmenides The problem of the One and the many has many paralells with the issues of immanence and transcendance. We are all one in our portion of being which is an allotment from an eternal Spirit but we are unique and many in our circuitous material manifestations which are temporary vestibules for the unfolding of a unique fragment of Transcendant consciouness. So we are both enclosed / coded portions of the same energies that created the Cosmos and fragments of a Greater Whole Being that is everlasting and indestructable. We are free to do our own or anothers will and if you take a life your are severing your connection with Being as well as destroying a unique manifestation of both an individual consciouness and the Eternal Spirit. All is One but one self is not ALL. It's not God destroying God because everthing is One , it's you destroying your own capacity for love and the participation in the powerful Oneness of Being that Love engenders. Every betrayal of Love is a departure from Being . You cannot destroy God but you can sever your connection to the source of your own being , thereby initiating the process of your own self destructive isolation. Meanwhile : Judgement is pending
Seven Lights rants - murder is somehow been redefined
No, murder is a judicial term. Your rant of denial will not change this. A friend of mine in Texas tells me that they inject death-row folks in record numbers. Are these considered "murder" in the state of Texas, where murder has a wide body of law and court precedent?
Methinks not. When Texas executes, they execute. Execution of a murderer is not itself murder. If you have any doubts about this, go ask a judge in Texas, and they will correct your abject ignorance of the subject matter.
So Seven "Jethro" Lights - it is a strong suggestion that you actually study the terms before speaking on them. Being educated in public schools is a significant mental deficit to overcome, but you're up to it.
This is actually a denial of Secondary Causality, and only that. God foresaw and God consented but God didn't necessitate. This would do away with free will completely.
Remember, All logic, science, understanding comes from Creaton. But God explains Creation and not vice versa. But both the Creation and the Redemption have always been understood to be free acts of God, the importance of which is that the necessity associated with logic and determinism does not apply to God.
This of course all has its origin in St Paul, and St Peter's warning applies :Paul speaks of some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
JIM: Everything well said, except the last line above. Judgement cannot exist in the sense of a "punishment". Judgement does exist in the form of observation, what works or what does not work, or perhaps even a loose adaptation of cause and effect wherein God/Creator is the ultimate observer and observation is a judgement. Through this process, God/Creator defines its being by what it is and what it is not, but the bottom line is that either way, God/Creator IS, or "I Am." So, simply weaving all this together, God/Creator Is, God/Creator is ALL and everything,God/Creator is eternal existing in the past,present, and future all at the same moment of Now, that free-will cannot exist, that God/Creator is both the experiencer and observer of ALL it has created to know what it is and what it is not to claim "I Am", makes the statement a true statement that God/Creator "is both the murderer and the murdered." You and I are simply part of that process, just as an ingredient in a cake mix.
Hey James, we are all connected indeed, but the differeance is, G-d is Light and we chose darkness. So what G-d is trying to do is get us back out of the darkness and into the Light. Now, as far as the birds and animals and people all being gods, that's not true. G-d is in everything and is part of everything, but that everything is still just His creation, not He Himself. G-d is neverending, while birds, animals and people die.
You make some very interesting points, and I will try to work through them if you don't mind. I hope I could help.
You said:
"This is for those who feel that "all is one", "everything is connected", or "God/Creator is all." "
Well, I obviously do not agree with the concept of "all is one," or that "everything is connected" in the sense that everything has a "ground of being" in one spot (as the 20th Century Scholar Paul Tillich believed). But I am the one that believes that God is creator of all. But I don't see how if He is, how He can be both murderer and murdered (that seems more of an Eastern Concept than a Western/Judaio-Christian one). Can you explain it within the framework of Christian understanding? For you try, it seems, to force this somewhat into Jesus' words of "loving your NEIGHBOR as yourself" (you misquoted a little here) and then say "kill your bother I am killing myself." That doesn't seem to follow from Jesus statement, you may need to explain a little more there (sorry, I must be somewhat neïve).
Another thing you mentioned follows:
"...if I don't have free will because God/Creator is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient and I murder someone, why should I be judged for it when the murder was not of my will because all is one, and that one is God/Creator? Biblical Jesus again says,"Do not judge, or you too will be judged" which would indicate that to judge another would be to judge myself because we are all one."
The Bible simply doesn't teach here what you are attempting to say. It is a nice try in trying to think through this, but the Bible does not teach that mankind does not have freewill. You may think, because God is omnipotent, that man cannot have free will (because God "cannot" violate free will, thus he is not omnipotent, as another post tried to defend), but the Bible teaches the "balance" of God, and though He is CAPABLE of all things, each part of His nature balances the other out so God can be just and righteous. In His own nature, He limits Himself only because He is "all" in the other attributes. Being all powerful, God can do all things, but being All-Wise, He will only do things in accordance with His own nature. So, thus, He can create creatures, in "His image," who will have the freedom to choose to love Him or hate Him, and in doing that, they will have followed their own nature toward their own end. God is not the murderer here because the people are free, and independent, to choose.
So what do you think, friend? I am interested to hear what you have to say because it seems you are well-learned in these areas.
God, or absolute Being, created the Self as one with Him, Her, or It. The multiplicity of forms in the universe is a grand cosmic delusion imposed on the Self and this reinforces the belief in a separate self. Our essential unity gives rise to the law of cause and effect -- whatever I do to another, I have done to myself, or I reap what I sow. I have free will, but when I choose to act selfishly, or cause harm to myself or others, I experience suffering. From the perspective of eternity, it does not matter what I do, because God's will be done (in the fullness of time). However, for me, as a separate ego, when I harm another I am causing suffering to myself. It may be a temporary delusion, but I still experience suffering, and it may last for a very long time if I continue to commit evil over many lives. There is no practical limit to the suffering one may endure if one continues to commit evil acts. In the long run, we all come to our oneness with the eternal Self, but we each can delay that realization for a very long time, and experience great suffering, or we each can choose to cooperate with the process of realization and come to the peace and bliss of God quickly, even in this life.
Sure. God is a murderer. That is why most rational people are atheists.
Consider this: God causes millions of abortions every year, yet Christians bomb abortion clinics which perform far fewer abortions than God. If Eric Rudolf ever gets out, maybe he will bomb the Pearly Gates. OK, OK, call it a miscarriage if you want to get all PC on me. But if God is all powerful, then the fate of God-induced abortions is on his hands.
Nice of you to join the conversation! You have an interesting argument, in stating that God causes MILLIONS of abortions every year. And you'd be absolutely right if it were coming simply from a naturalistic perspective. If God simply was the God of the deists, and there is really no "afterlife," than God would have, in a sense, "murdered" those babies. BUT if afterlife IS a truth, and that God actually decided, because He is God, to spare the lives of the infants by immediate deliverance into heaven, than you cannot call it abortion. Christians believe that, so in Christianity, we do not think of it from simply a naturalistic viewpoint that death is the end. It IS an abortion for a person to do it, however, because they are simply taking the role of death into their own hands, and acting as god and judge (or executioner).
So, you are right from your own viewpoint, but it is a mute argument for the Christian.
However, an abortion is an abortion no matter who performs it.
abortion |əˈbôr sh ən| noun 1 the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy. * the expulsion of a fetus from the uterus by natural causes before it is able to survive independently. * Biology the arrest of the development of an organ, typically a seed or fruit.
IF there is an afterlife, baby goes to heaven either way: man-made or god-made abortion. What about the suffering of the parents? Does God not care about them?
I can find no quantitative difference between God-caused abortions and human-caused abortions. I have seen adults sent into severe depression due to multiple miscarriages (i.e. spontaneous abortion). If God wanted to save the baby from a miserable life on Earth, why did He put in the womb in the first place?
Here is a prayer for all the little children Christians out there to say at bedtime:
Ha ha, Drach, inventive end (the "Dear God, Choose Life"). I think a good sense of humor is needed in these forums.
You are correct, in a sense, that the definition of abortion is definitely to "abort," or to "pull out." But there is a qualitative difference from a "God" abortion as you say, or a "man" abortion. A "God" abortion is from an omniscient God who sees the future of every individual, and knows also what is called "Middle knowledge," or the possibilities of future situations as well, and because of that, He can by mercy "abort" a fetus to save it from a life of misery that only He knows (I must admit I do not speak for all Christians here; middle knowledge is not the position of some fine Christian scholars). There is a Scripture in the Old Testament, if you don't mind me quoting (some HATE people who quote Scripture, but we are dealing with Christian issues here, so it is appropriate). It is in Isaiah 57:1, where it states:
"The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout ones are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil."
Now the context of this passage is the death of the righteous (which, you can logically place the fetus, who are completely guiltless and innocent). According to the prophet, though people wonder why, it is stated that they are taken away to spare them from evil that is about to take place if they remained alive. So, although this is a Christian answer (which I am sure you won't be satisfied with, but that is ok, because discussion will at least humble our hearts to be more studious; nothing wrong with that), it is one that warrants some merit, because qualitatively, God removes from some to spare the child, while for humans to do it, it is simply to spare the woman from an "inconvinience" in the majority of the cases (some, for example, rape, or other things, have some quality issues in mind).
What do you think? Should we choose CHOICE now when it comes to God?
" You and I are simply part of that process, just as an ingredient in a cake mix. "
This sounds like Joe Campbell meets Dr. Bronner and then they both morph into Charles Manson : " You can project it back at me, but I am only what lives inside each and every one of you. My father is your system.... I am only what you made me. I am a reflection of you. You made your children what they are.... These children that come at you with knives "
If what you say is true than we are hopelessly muddled in a circuitous, spiraling semantic web of deternenistic forensics and self devouring disappointments resembling something along the lines of hyper-Calvinism freaking Out on acid in Calcutta... Welcome to the Future of Evolutionary Meta psychosis = The Devil dressed up as god and turned me into a dung beetle Holy Cow ! O man
Sid:"Well, I obviously do not agree with the concept of "all is one," or that "everything is connected" in the sense that everything has a "ground of being" in one spot (as the 20th Century Scholar Paul Tillich believed). But I am the one that believes that God is creator of all."
JIM: I understand your position, but it would also indicate a sort of "middle of the road" position. Let me give you my opinion on this. If, as you state, God is the creator of All, then making the statement "I obviously do not agree with the concept of "all is one," can only be interpretted as you believe that we are separated from God and not a part of God. So my post cannot be answered by yourself and you cannot but disagree with me or challenge me. Ok. But, here is another way to consider thinking about your position. The Book of Genesis sets down a step-by-step account of the events which happened in God's creation of the earth and all upon, to culminate in man's creation. If you were to completely reverse the procedure, you would wind up at the same originating point that began all of creation; God. Right? Now, if you know a little bit about science and its theories without getting too deep in it, the Law of Conservation of Energy says energy can be neither created nor destroyed as well as the same for the Law of Conservation of Matter. Einstein's E=MC^2 tells us that the total amount of mass and energy in the universe is constant. So, my point with regards to God being the creator of all things is indeed a true statement which you also make. But, this is only a partial truth if you believe that we are separated from God. God had to create "us" from some-thing, as per the Laws I cited. So, if God was all there was in the beginning, then God had to create out of what was already there, God. So this can only be translated into that God is All, and from God we were created.....not separate from God, but from the same matter and energy that makes God God. Thus, All Is One. God cannot have created us from some-thing God is not, or some-thing separate from Himself. The science of Quantum Mechanics gets into this as well. Jesus makes mention as well, "Is it not written that ye are gods?"
Sid:""loving your NEIGHBOR as yourself" (you misquoted a little here)"
JIM: OK, to be exact; Mt 22:37-40,"Jesus said: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your mind. This is the first commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as your self." How do you see me as forcing this into the words of Jesus? It is exactly as he said and as I did as well. I will also throw this in at you as well; Luke 6:27-28."But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you" and 1 John 2:9-10,"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble." I force nothing, but my statements are truth as supported directly from the Bible.
Sid:"The Bible simply doesn't teach here what you are attempting to say. It is a nice try in trying to think through this, but the Bible does not teach that mankind does not have freewill."
Jim: There have been many forum discussions about this and I will not repeat it. Your viewpoint and my viewpoint is solely based on our understanding of what we both believe, that God is All and every-thing, verses God is the creator of All and we are separate from that creation. Free-will cannot exist if God is All, but free-will would exist if we were a separate creation of God from some-thing, some energy, some matter that is not of God.
You are one of the most reasonable and intelligent people on these here forums. I am glad that you are here and posing your dilemmas here. In fact, I am one Christian who believes that critics of Christianity are crucial to the growth of us Christians. Many Christians don't feel the same way, but if a critic exposes problems with Christianity, then it sure enough will force a Christian to not be so lazy and to do some thinking and research on these subjects. So thanks for bringing up the tough issues.
Your explanation on the "God is One" theory was brilliant, and process theologians and those of Hindu origin and New Age advocates should take note, because it helps their cause. I do, however, believe that the physical properties of the universe and its laws do not necessarily HAVE to be seen as part of the same substance as God. Now, you can say that I am stepping out of the realm of scientific observation, but we both know that "God is Spirit," and that one thing we cannot do in science is study the substance of "spirit." One may ask, "how did God create, then, the material stuff," but in Christian teaching and Jewish teaching, God is able to do this, and it seems that quantum mechanics would not necessarily contradict this, because it cannot observe this. So, in this case, we would just have to take God's word for it (I know, that will NOT be popular with the many thoughtful atheists on this Amazon forum).
As far as your next argument, concerning the "forcing" of Jesus' words, what I meant was when you quoted we should "love our neighbors as ourselves," you then went on to believe logically it follows, "if I kill my neighbor I kill myself." Actually, this again would be more "Eastern" and Pantheistic in nature. If your first premise is true (God is all, and all is God) and the Bible definitely taught that, your logic would be correct. But your verses you added in your new argument do not follow this logic, but simply give good credence to the original "love your neighbor as yourself." Do you see that? Because I treat people as I would want to be treated (as myself) or as God would want me to treat them (my enemies), does not go along that if I "kill" my neighbor, I am killing myself, and therefore God is killing us (we all are one). You can give this argument to an Easterner, but I am sorry it doesn't work in Christian thought.
Loved the post though, it is one of the more brilliant pieces here.
God is not a murderer because murder is taking life unlawfully. All souls are mine, He says. God gives life and he takes it away. It is his prerogative. Murderers take what is His, unlawfully. Every soul dies. We all go back in the box. That is part of the plan. The question is, what's next?
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