Religion failing again?

One place where we could expect religion should help is in counseling and supporting those who have to deal with violence against humans, deliberate or accidental. It would seem to be a natural place for police officers, firemen, medical staff and soldiers to turn when they have seen too much death or injury.

Yet does it help in these cases? I see little evidence of this. ISTM that believers seem to do no better than anyone else and clergy are unable to be effective. I'm unconvinced that it was any better in WWII either.

Religion failing again?

What does religion have to offer? Delusion and myth. Read Mother Goose if you need a fantasy. At least you'll laugh.

The attitude behind the first respnse to the OP is why.

People are laughed at, ridiculed, and their intelligence questioned if they seek spiritual answers in religion. When THAT discourages them, and they fail to find what they seek, the detractors point their fingers and say, "AHA! See - Religion doesn't solve anything!"

When 'evangelical' Bush started these wars he seems to have cared nothing for those who return broken from them. Those who went are paying a high price indeed in terms of emotional distress even if their bodies are not broken. Why do they find no comfort in faith?

ummm...the reality of mortality is troubling, Can break a person. Such a thing is too real for mere consolation. Maybe they don't know where to look. Doctrine is off-putting, with what they have seen could seem utterly patronizing to hear "God has a plan" "God's will"...maybe they don't know where else to go. I could honestly imagine a huge influx to buddhism due to the whole "suffering" concept. What does it all mean, what is this all for, the cyclical violence, over and over and over again, "God's will" doesn't cut it. Few recognize a depth enough to offer to those in need I guess. Sorry stream of consciousness writing.

LBOM:

It seems to have escaped you that atheists fare far worse in this society than believers. Every poll shows non-believers to be a small fraction of believers. Yet, you constantly hear believers whine about how mistreated, abused, and discriminated against they are. Oh, suck it up! To quote "The Lion in Winter," "I could take defeats like yours and laugh!"

As a solider, the phrase 'there is no atheist in a foxhole' has some significance for me. I don't deny that religion helps people deal with fear. During my time in the military, there have been times where it has been very, very hard for me to refrain from religion, just for some semblance of comfort. So again, I do not deny that religion offers a deal of comfort for many.

What I do deny, however, is that just because the belief is comforting, does not mean it is true. This is how religion spreads: those seeking comfort are seeking comfort and nothing else. So religion may or may not be true... the mind does not consider this when it considers how pleasant the idea that there is an invisible man in the sky who loves you, knows your name, understands your pain, and offers you salvation is. A defensive mechanism of the brain shuts the skeptic in us off, and we become hooked to this belief; like a drug.

I never really seriously took the drug, but I often feel as though I am suffering from withdrawal. Having seen death, the thought of it scares me. Sometimes the fear sneaks up on me at random times, such as when I am taking a shower, or eating my breakfeast. I just remember that one day, I am going to die, and all this is going to end, and there is a shallow, empty feeling. With God, all this can go away, and I don't deny this, but I refuse to shut off the skeptic in me. I refuse to compromise my objectivity for the sake of comfort, because I know it would just be an illusion.

If I cannot reconcile with the most difficult inevitabilities of our reality, then I shouldn't.

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Fine Nice Young Person's post:
And I've seen the opposite. just maybe 3 days ago I saw this groundswell from military folks to canonize Father Emil J. Kapaun .

SK: Um, proving what? Yes, Father Kapaun seems like he was a very heroic individual, very exemplary, (judging from his Wiki page), but what does that prove about the general topic being discussed?

Garrett Gutierrez: As a solider, the phrase 'there is no atheist in a foxhole' has some significance for me. I don't deny that religion helps people deal with fear.

jefm: I was so hoping someone would go there, you beat me to it. Well put.

Garrett

Very moving and wise and honest post. Thank you.

Henry

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Yes, if it is failing today, how much worse must it have been during the long, bloody history of the West? Or was the delusion so powerful that false became true in the minds of believers?

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Fine Nice Young Person: I and others have been yelling Success, Success for that long.

jefm: sorry to backpedal but what task of merit has religion succeeded at?

James, If you break, it's because you're brittle!!

You have a point, Garrett. I work with the dying; the elderly and terminally ill. I have faith, but it's not the traditional, Christian type. I am not a Christian at all. I believe that the words of Gandalf sums up my beliefs on death quite well. "Death is a path we all must take." We can't get out of it, it will find us all, we all have to do it sometime. I am not afraid to die, I am afraid that I am not making of my life all that I can.

I must also say, that it's my belief that religion (in my experience, Christianity) can bring comfort, but it can also sow discord and guilt, and mostly offers only the veneer of comfort. If you look too closely you can see that it only goes so deep. My reasons??? As I sit by the bedsides of the dying, I have noticed that most are very afraid. Even the most staunch and upright Christians are afraid of taking the step over to the otherworld. Even though most proclaim loudly their belief in Heaven, and the righteousness of their God, they are afraid to see Him face to face. I cannot know whether I will be afraid as my life comes to a close, I will not know until it happens.

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Idunasappl's post:
I must also say, that it's my belief that religion (in my experience, Christianity) can bring comfort, but it can also sow discord and guilt, and mostly offers only the veneer of comfort. If you look too closely you can see that it only goes so deep. My reasons??? As I sit by the bedsides of the dying, I have noticed that most are very afraid. Even the most staunch and upright Christians are afraid of taking the step over to the otherworld. Even though most proclaim loudly their belief in Heaven, and the righteousness of their God, they are afraid to see Him face to face. I cannot know whether I will be afraid as my life comes to a close, I will not know until it happens.

SK: That's very very interesting, Idunasappl. You are very brave emotionally to be working with the dying. Part of the work I do is to raise funds for our hospital's palliative care and hospice programs, so I know where you're coming from.

I'm wondering where the fear of death you describe comes from. Is it a fear among the religious that there really might be nothing but oblivion there, despite what their religion has taught them. Or is it truly a guilty fear that they will "meet their maker" and he will consign them to hell?

Fine Nice Young Person says: "........"

PLONK!

Fine Nice Young Person says:
You missed the point...reason tells you that what is failing eventually fails. And since 2000 years later you are still yelling, Failure, Failure..maybe you are just plain wrong.

I and others have been yelling Success, Success for that long.

All so silly really.
It is a failure to you and you don't believe. It is a success to me and I'm a convert.

You could make the same point about murder and rape in general, been goin on longer then 2000 years. Length of time does not equal success.

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Kessler, I think it's probably both. In my experience with Christianity, there was a lot of emphasis on guilt, and the idea of unworthiness. From what I see on the posts here, it's hasn't changed in the last 13 years. That is probably part of it. As much as many, though I have to say not all, say they feel secure in the fact that they are "saved," the messages of being unworthy of salvation bleed through. There is a fear that when they are "judged," they will be judged only on the "bad" things they've done, and not the "good" that balances them out. Though I have not worked with any of the Islamic faith, I have worked with Buddhists and Jews, there is some fear of the unknown, but not the same kind of fear that I see in many of my Christian patients. It is an interesting paradox, and one I fear we can't fully understand.

Garrett Gutierrez says: As a solider, the phrase 'there is no atheist in a foxhole' has some significance for me.

Sammeh: Me too...especially since so many of the Believers in this Forum always try to connect war and killing with atheism, yet they are the first ones to quote "there are no atheists in foxholes". Another one of their odd little double-standards. I guess whatever argument serves them best on any given day, huh?

Fine Nice Young Person says: Okay, I'll let that brilliant post stand just-as-it-is. Anyone that doesn't see what this means about you, is beyond any argument I can give.

Sammeh: actually, all of your posts seem to indicate how far beyond your comprehension the arguments are...