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on February 8, 2004
I am not a woman (obviously) but I am a fighter in the SCA (and a knight and a duke, just for the record). I have attended Ms. Beck's seminars and I have read her book. As a fighter and a trainer of women fighters, I find the technical details of her book generally accurate and helpful. Although she (by necessity) paints her observations of female physiology with a broad brush, her advice and training suggestions are by-and-large on-target.
Where Beck's book really shines is in its insights into the mind of the female fighter. Men who take up fighting (or any martial art, I imagine) have _no_ concept of the "battle" a woman must go through just to set foot onto the fighting field or into the arena. Beck knows the baggage and "inner demons" that ladies must wrestle with (she calls it the "lizard brain"), and her advice on how to win that mental battle is laser-beam accurate.
I have been in Beck's seminars and seen, at the conclusion, a room full of women in tears because Beck's words addressed their frustrations and struggles so directly. If you have ever felt "unwelcome" on the fighting field, or felt like you had to let a man win a fight in order to be a "good girl," or felt tears uncontrollably welling up in your eyes when you received a particularly good "butt wrap," then there's a message in this book that you need.
I know women who have read this book who, after years of SCA fighting, finally felt like they had achieved real insight, and were ready to break down mental barriers that they had only been vaguely aware of.
Men who read or review this book may say, "I don't see what the big deal is." Believe me, this is a book that will be extremely helpful, on a very primal level, to nearly any woman who wants to put on a suit of armor. "The Armored Rose" isn't so much about SCA fighting as it is about empowerment.
(Incidentally, I'd suggest this book for _any_ woman who is struggling with what seems to be recurring failures or frustrations in just about any competitive field - sports, business or politics, for example. Although you'll get a lot of pictures of women swinging swords that you don't really need, you may find the advice on how to "play with the boys" and overcoming what Beck calls the "Five Hurdles" worth the cover price.)
Where Beck's book really shines is in its insights into the mind of the female fighter. Men who take up fighting (or any martial art, I imagine) have _no_ concept of the "battle" a woman must go through just to set foot onto the fighting field or into the arena. Beck knows the baggage and "inner demons" that ladies must wrestle with (she calls it the "lizard brain"), and her advice on how to win that mental battle is laser-beam accurate.
I have been in Beck's seminars and seen, at the conclusion, a room full of women in tears because Beck's words addressed their frustrations and struggles so directly. If you have ever felt "unwelcome" on the fighting field, or felt like you had to let a man win a fight in order to be a "good girl," or felt tears uncontrollably welling up in your eyes when you received a particularly good "butt wrap," then there's a message in this book that you need.
I know women who have read this book who, after years of SCA fighting, finally felt like they had achieved real insight, and were ready to break down mental barriers that they had only been vaguely aware of.
Men who read or review this book may say, "I don't see what the big deal is." Believe me, this is a book that will be extremely helpful, on a very primal level, to nearly any woman who wants to put on a suit of armor. "The Armored Rose" isn't so much about SCA fighting as it is about empowerment.
(Incidentally, I'd suggest this book for _any_ woman who is struggling with what seems to be recurring failures or frustrations in just about any competitive field - sports, business or politics, for example. Although you'll get a lot of pictures of women swinging swords that you don't really need, you may find the advice on how to "play with the boys" and overcoming what Beck calls the "Five Hurdles" worth the cover price.)
on November 9, 2006
Without overwhelming the reader with excessive jargon, Dr. Tobi Beck (Duchess Elina of Beckenham) clearly and concisely identifies the differences between male and female fighters, both physiological and phychological, and discusses the variations in training that these differences necessitate. She learned what she wrote and what she teaches first hand, strapping on the gear, taking the bruises, and shedding the tears, for more than twenty years. To say she is an expert on this topic is an understatement of the higest order. She's not the greatest fighter on earth, but she can teach you how to beat them.
What she writes benefits both the woman who wishes to master the skills required to be a successful warrior, and the teacher who would assist her. I read this book twice in one day at this most recent Pennsic, these readings punctuated by dashing across camp several times to have Tobi illustrate something to me, or, in my immodesty, to show her that I well and truly understood something she wrote, that I "got it". This book is well written, clearly illustrated, and easy to follow (even for a dumb stick-jock like me). Having read this book, I believe now that I actually have a lesson or two that I could teach the female fighters in my Kingdom that will improve their skills and make them better warriors. The first part of those lessons is to hand them their own copy of this book, which I have bought for them.
Earl Cathyn Fitzgerald, KSCA, fighter for over 26 years, holder of fighting awards from three Kingdoms and winner of more tournaments than I can count, almost experienced enough to think I am ready to learn something about swordfighting.
What she writes benefits both the woman who wishes to master the skills required to be a successful warrior, and the teacher who would assist her. I read this book twice in one day at this most recent Pennsic, these readings punctuated by dashing across camp several times to have Tobi illustrate something to me, or, in my immodesty, to show her that I well and truly understood something she wrote, that I "got it". This book is well written, clearly illustrated, and easy to follow (even for a dumb stick-jock like me). Having read this book, I believe now that I actually have a lesson or two that I could teach the female fighters in my Kingdom that will improve their skills and make them better warriors. The first part of those lessons is to hand them their own copy of this book, which I have bought for them.
Earl Cathyn Fitzgerald, KSCA, fighter for over 26 years, holder of fighting awards from three Kingdoms and winner of more tournaments than I can count, almost experienced enough to think I am ready to learn something about swordfighting.
on July 3, 2003
the author of this book did not mean it to be for women fighters in random martial arts. She states specifically that it is for ***SCA*** combat. It serves its purpose perfectly. For those who complain she lacks credentials.... being one of the first women in the SPECIFIC SPORT SHE IS WRITING ABOUT is a perfectly valid credential for what she's trying to do.
on September 11, 2002
First of all, this is an excellent book. I really agree with Ms. Beck's analysis of the emotions of women fighters. It's so true, and I hope it helps a lot of people. Secondly, the people who gave this only 1 or 2 stars have to realize that she is writing from experience about a specific sport, not trying to pretend that she has medical knowledge. Lighten up! This book is really helpful for fighters!
on May 24, 2001
A must have book for fighters of all skill levels when it comes to armored combat. Ms. Beck goes through all the reason a woman can't fight and what to do to surpass those. She explains the differences between women's and men's armor and in the fighting and learning styles of women and how they differ to men. Reading it made me realize that I can fight too.
on June 8, 2016
If you are a Chivalric fighter, you need to read this book. Men, read this to understand women fighters and how our bodies are different, how we perceive what is being said and what you are trying to convey . Women, read this to understand how our bodies are different from men's and how to move. Very inspirational for women Chivalric fighters. Excellent read. My chivalric trainer recommended this to me. I highly recommend reading this book.
on January 11, 2014
The biggest question I have is "Why didn't I pick up this book sooner?". I am a decent target archer, but I also want to be able to pick up a stick and join my friends in all the fun on the lines. So, I started a bit of training. Couldn't figure out what was going wrong, so gave it up.
Then, I read The Armored Rose.
Really, it's not me being naturally bad at it. It's not realizing that my body is constructed differently. When I move in harmony with how I'm put together, I become a force of nature almost impossible to overwhelm.
I am very grateful for this book.
Then, I read The Armored Rose.
Really, it's not me being naturally bad at it. It's not realizing that my body is constructed differently. When I move in harmony with how I'm put together, I become a force of nature almost impossible to overwhelm.
I am very grateful for this book.
on February 15, 2007
There's quite a following in the SCA's female armored combat community for the style called the Armored Rose. Even some male fighters recommend it to women, and I know of a few men who, to my eye, seem to fight the style.
In the armored combat community, I'm known as Sir Corby de la Flamme and I think it is a bad idea to teach Armored Rose to women. I'm not going to address issues of psychology (though I am not alone in thinking that there are problems in that part of the Armored Rose book) nor will I address the depths of the medical physiology described in the book. I'm not a psychologist, nor a doctor.
But I have been fighting since 1986, I've been a knight of the SCA since 1995, and I've trained an awful lot of people, including women. I also come from a SCA region ("kingdom") where analysis of fighting technique is a well defined science. I mention this because I've seen very large differences in method, methodolgy, technique and terminology across the SCA. Some places don't seem to have any agreed-upon terminology for things like range, blows, or shield position. And unfortunately, some places where fighting happens don't seem to have any plan, method or style for training fighters. Where I come from, we do.
The proof is in the pudding as they say, and I've personally never seen any pudding. Everyone I've ever seen win with sword leg forward has been big or strong or fast or thick, or some combination of these.
The point I'm trying to get to is that in my opinion, successful sword leg forward style requires big or strong or fast or thick, and among any population of heavy fighters, women are least likely to be any of the first three, and no one should aspire to the fourth. (For the unfamiliar, "thick" means a cheater.)
If women's bodies aren't able to move the same way as men's when throwing a blow, then why do female batters, boxers and martial artists move the same way as their male counterparts?
I've never met a healthy woman who can't twist her hips roughly 90 degrees from a rest position to point onto the same line as her back foot. Anyone who can do that can generate enough force to throw a killing blow. However, standing with the sword foot forward pulls the hip around, effectively removing most of the large muscles of the body from the blow. In fact, sword foot forward stance begins at the place where the blow with greatest amount of power generation ends.
The most power anyone can generate in a blow starts with your sword foot back. By taking a big step forward with your sword foot, your hips and shoulders swing around toward the opponent and as your foot lands, your blow completes. But if your sword foot is already forward, there's nowhere for the power to come from.
Further, standing with the sword foot forward requires a much more active shield defense. By bringing the sword foot around, less of her body is protected by the shield so the the fighter cannot manage small blocks to cover those portions that are now targets. An active defense is more work. An active defense is harder than a mostly passive one.
I had the chance to attend most of Tobi Beck/Duchess Elina's formal class at Pennsic in 2003. One of the most crucial things that I noticed in this class is that generally, the generic examples of "the way men fight" were correct in one primary and unfortunate way: they showed an example of bad style, bad technique, bad form that is all too typical in the SCA. The generic style used by almost everyone (though that "almost everyone" may be 60% or so) is an example of bad technique all the way around, and is quite exactly the sort of style you need to be physically talented with in order to have success. No wonder that most women who start fighting have problems, when they probably get shown a terrible stance if they get shown one at all.
What was that style? Much to my shock, a senior fighter in the class demonstrated it as if it were his own. (He was a duke from an earlier era, and I didn't catch his name. Mystery duke stood with his feet not quite square, his shield almost flat, his shoulders almost square to his opponent and his sword foot's heel completely off the ground. It didn't look terribly different from the stance any person off the street would take if you asked them to put on a shield, hold a sword and look like they wanted to hit someone. Terrible.
No wonder that anyone attempting this would have a problem, not just the women. Here comes the chorus:
To fight successfully (these days at least) with such poor form, a fighter has to be big or strong or fast or thick.
So what? After all, I'm supposed to be talking about how sword leg forward is wrong for women. Right. Here we go. When you justify sword leg forward style as better than "the way men fight" you aren't saying much when what you mean by "the way men fight" is badly and with little or no style or technique.
All right then, you ask, If that generic style is so bad, then why not teach sword leg forward to women? Because sword leg forward style relies even more on strength, size or speed for success. It may provide some of the same benefits that any style does: planning on how to do things for example. But it does not offer an easy block, a powerful shot or any of the other benefits that, for example, Bellatrix or Oldcastle style offer.
There's much more dissection of this book on the web. This review is a subset of a longer review that's already out there. Search for "Armored Rose" and it will turn up.
In the armored combat community, I'm known as Sir Corby de la Flamme and I think it is a bad idea to teach Armored Rose to women. I'm not going to address issues of psychology (though I am not alone in thinking that there are problems in that part of the Armored Rose book) nor will I address the depths of the medical physiology described in the book. I'm not a psychologist, nor a doctor.
But I have been fighting since 1986, I've been a knight of the SCA since 1995, and I've trained an awful lot of people, including women. I also come from a SCA region ("kingdom") where analysis of fighting technique is a well defined science. I mention this because I've seen very large differences in method, methodolgy, technique and terminology across the SCA. Some places don't seem to have any agreed-upon terminology for things like range, blows, or shield position. And unfortunately, some places where fighting happens don't seem to have any plan, method or style for training fighters. Where I come from, we do.
The proof is in the pudding as they say, and I've personally never seen any pudding. Everyone I've ever seen win with sword leg forward has been big or strong or fast or thick, or some combination of these.
The point I'm trying to get to is that in my opinion, successful sword leg forward style requires big or strong or fast or thick, and among any population of heavy fighters, women are least likely to be any of the first three, and no one should aspire to the fourth. (For the unfamiliar, "thick" means a cheater.)
If women's bodies aren't able to move the same way as men's when throwing a blow, then why do female batters, boxers and martial artists move the same way as their male counterparts?
I've never met a healthy woman who can't twist her hips roughly 90 degrees from a rest position to point onto the same line as her back foot. Anyone who can do that can generate enough force to throw a killing blow. However, standing with the sword foot forward pulls the hip around, effectively removing most of the large muscles of the body from the blow. In fact, sword foot forward stance begins at the place where the blow with greatest amount of power generation ends.
The most power anyone can generate in a blow starts with your sword foot back. By taking a big step forward with your sword foot, your hips and shoulders swing around toward the opponent and as your foot lands, your blow completes. But if your sword foot is already forward, there's nowhere for the power to come from.
Further, standing with the sword foot forward requires a much more active shield defense. By bringing the sword foot around, less of her body is protected by the shield so the the fighter cannot manage small blocks to cover those portions that are now targets. An active defense is more work. An active defense is harder than a mostly passive one.
I had the chance to attend most of Tobi Beck/Duchess Elina's formal class at Pennsic in 2003. One of the most crucial things that I noticed in this class is that generally, the generic examples of "the way men fight" were correct in one primary and unfortunate way: they showed an example of bad style, bad technique, bad form that is all too typical in the SCA. The generic style used by almost everyone (though that "almost everyone" may be 60% or so) is an example of bad technique all the way around, and is quite exactly the sort of style you need to be physically talented with in order to have success. No wonder that most women who start fighting have problems, when they probably get shown a terrible stance if they get shown one at all.
What was that style? Much to my shock, a senior fighter in the class demonstrated it as if it were his own. (He was a duke from an earlier era, and I didn't catch his name. Mystery duke stood with his feet not quite square, his shield almost flat, his shoulders almost square to his opponent and his sword foot's heel completely off the ground. It didn't look terribly different from the stance any person off the street would take if you asked them to put on a shield, hold a sword and look like they wanted to hit someone. Terrible.
No wonder that anyone attempting this would have a problem, not just the women. Here comes the chorus:
To fight successfully (these days at least) with such poor form, a fighter has to be big or strong or fast or thick.
So what? After all, I'm supposed to be talking about how sword leg forward is wrong for women. Right. Here we go. When you justify sword leg forward style as better than "the way men fight" you aren't saying much when what you mean by "the way men fight" is badly and with little or no style or technique.
All right then, you ask, If that generic style is so bad, then why not teach sword leg forward to women? Because sword leg forward style relies even more on strength, size or speed for success. It may provide some of the same benefits that any style does: planning on how to do things for example. But it does not offer an easy block, a powerful shot or any of the other benefits that, for example, Bellatrix or Oldcastle style offer.
There's much more dissection of this book on the web. This review is a subset of a longer review that's already out there. Search for "Armored Rose" and it will turn up.
on February 27, 2013
I'm a three belted knight in amtgard, and first started playing that in 1988. Amtgard is a foam weapons/boffer style combat system. Recently I decided to try and go for my 4th belt, which is for fighting. I've tried fighting periodically, ever since I started. I'd always get the impression that while i had promise, i just never seemed to get there. I hated tournaments, and they kind of freaked me out, actually. I had also started realizing that there might be some differences between the male and female forms, that could affect fighting. Before I could actually start reading the book, I got the gist of the main stance from reviews here on this sight. I had already noticed that I was getting hip shot alot less with the armored rose stance than with the standard one. I just didn't realize that what was happening, though I noticed that my shield was rotating up and away from my sword side hip. In all honesty, until I read the book, I had never realized my pelvis locks into place like it does. So all these years, I was moving my shield far out of position. Funny thing is that along time ago, i tried sca heavy, and got complaints that I didn't hit hard enough. I had no idea. I mostly do ok in amtgard because the weapons are a great deal lighter, and I have enough forearm strength. I'm a little too old to be trying, but this book at least gives me a better chance, and more importantly, a better chance at enjoying fighting, instead of trying to convince myself that I didn't care about it.
I have to do some interpreting, since head shots aren't allowed in amtgard, and the absence of armor suggests a less static situation. Though not being a heavy fighter, I can only guess at that one.
I have to do some interpreting, since head shots aren't allowed in amtgard, and the absence of armor suggests a less static situation. Though not being a heavy fighter, I can only guess at that one.
on January 18, 2001
This book focuses on chivalric combat in the Society for Creative Anachranism, a historical re-inactment group. While the first half of the book focuses on physical training and is definatly specific to that area, the second half is a valuble resource for any woman involved in sports and anyone training woman in competition. It talks about the metal hurdles woman in contact sports have to face and how to overcome them. It is wonderful
