The Problems Presented by Capitalist Realism:
Reality v realism. Reality is the truth. Realism is that which presents itself as being true. Realism is an invisible ideology or an ideology in disguise and is used to cover up reality.
OK, so lets abandon and abolish capitalism, then what? Unfortunately, the situation is far worse and far less simple than the late Mark Fisher realized. His premise is that capitalism has become that only viable means of economic organization with no imaginable viable or coherent alternative. Fisher states it best in his own words “…easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism.” I think Mark Fisher fails to distinguish between capitalism in its neo-liberal variant and capitalism in its social democratic form. Both neo-liberalism and social democracy are built on a capitalist foundation; social democracy is not built on socialism. It is neo-liberal Capitalism that metastasis, devours, and subsumes into itself all that comes before it. We see this is the commercialization of all ideas, the commoditization of all values and conventionalization of all people. We have come to the point where alternative structures of economic organization cannot be imagined because under capitalism, there is a market for rebellion, resistance and recalcitrance. Protest itself can be commercialized, priced and sold as a commodity. This is the catharsis created by capitalism. Anything thrown at capitalism in dissent is consumed by it and regurgitated into a new form useful to the propagation of the capitalist order. The most effective means of sustainment for the capitalist order is the ability to co-opt any efforts to get around or outside of it by internalizing such attempts through commodification and commercialization. Under late capitalism, addiction to surplus desire and the resulting intoxication with excess subjectivity, guides much of our social interaction. This addiction to surplus desire in not at variance with our current form of realism, it is this realism that is at variance with reality. Surplus desire creates a fetish for consumption and consumption creates its own imperative. Our social interaction is now dominated and defined by our addiction to cheap consumer goods, making us forget that other ways of life are possible, enabling us to ignore the fact that we are ensnared in the logic of the current capitalist system by our fetish attention to, and growing addiction with, the must-have newest technology and most fashionable consumer goods. In our current society, happiness is found in our freedom to interact in and use the marketplace to chase our our addiction to excess desire. Social bonds and the human community are merely a byproduct of this paradigm. First, we create machine ‘thinking’, then we change our thinking to imitate or match it - this will untimely make human thinking expendable. This I believe is why Fisher says “…easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism.” As Max Horkheimer observed, we cannot know what a good and just society would look like when looking out from our current position, we simply lack the means to do so. This means that any critique of capitalism takes place from a position of imminence which thus implicates both capitalism and the critics of capitalism. There is no transcendental position from which to critique capitalism, but this seems to be what the author is seeking. Cooperation and reciprocity provide a healthier foundation upon which to build social consensus rather competition and confrontation as neo-liberal capitalism preaches. Neo-liberalism is economic pseudoscience presented as 'natural law'. At the same time, neo-liberalism is fast becoming neo-feudalism, not neo-fascism.
The Problem is Worse, but not for the Reasons the Author Believes:
What we find is that capitalism is rooted in the contradiction at the very heart of the Enlightenment which is a utilitarian mode of thought focused on self-preservation as well as the development of increasingly sophisticated means of social organization. The individual is elevated with no concept of individual purpose. The extension of this is a world in which reason itself leads to irrational actions and potential calamity. We cannot simply outlaw this reality, theoretically reject it or philosophically dismiss it as Mark Fisher seems wont to do. In this sense, capitalism is not an ‘-ism. It is just a label that we use to describe what happens naturally when humans are turned loose onto nature, with scarce resources, to fend for their survival. In other words, capitalism is just what people do. In this sense, the roots of what we call capitalism are anthropological. Mark Fisher's error is in thinking of capitalism as an ideology. Reality itself is disappointing, this is the real human tragedy. The advent of a post-humanist and post-modern world should really come as no surprise. Hierarchy, exploitation and inequitably seem to arise each time this experiment is run. Unfortunately, capitalist realism becomes capitalist reality. The very real pressures and difficulties presented by capitalism as documented by Mark Fisher are in great measure the very real pressures and difficulties presented by the contradictory demands made upon human existence under any form of economic or social organization. That is, hierarchies, inequalities, and imbalances will manifest themselves no matter we organize ourselves. There is no doubt that injustice and instability are an integral part of the current economic world order. Worse yet, injustice and instability are necessary components to sustaining the unsustainable world order. Even the melancholy reflection that our wealth is based on suffering is asking too much. We have already stumbled in and out of another abstraction, Socialist Realism. Capitalist Realism and Socialist Realism merely have different alignments of elites with different routes of mobility. Each produces its own set of pathologies, viz., the commodity fetish, the constant growth imperative, capital accumulation and economic elitism under Capitalist Realism; the labor fetish, stagnation disguised as sustainability, power accumulation and political elitism under Socialist Realism. The differences are the result of different managerial strategy. The owners of capital is no more in control of capital than the voter is in control of politics, technocratic corporatism is applied to both Capitalism and Socialism. We can replace the over marketization of Capitalist Realism with the over bureaucratization of Socialist Realism or have a combination of both in varying degrees which best explains our current predicament. In any case, labels such as capitalism and socialism over simplify a spectrum of economic modes of production, social forms of organization and political systems of governance. This is to say that the socio-economic world is not a given, it is not something that it is ‘out-there’ to be understood and inspected rationally. It is the construction of human actors. Human subjectivity must be considered. Unlike inanimate objects or lifeless critical theories, our experience of the world is an outcome of our experience of ourselves, our experience of others, their experience of us as well as our combined and interactive experience of the world as we can only partially know it. To employ a cliché, directing an eloquent and well thought out critique of any flavor of ‘Realism’, is to see the forest and overlook the trees. The challenge is that both the trees and the forest must be accounted for any theory.
Another way in which to see this problem is to consider that all that is accomplished under socialism is that the capitalist reality is centralized at the level of the state and managed for the benefit of officials of the state. The capitalist realism that Fisher bemoans is the same economic dynamic but decentralized from the state and put, to some extent, in private, or non-official, hands. Both, state capitalism and private capitalism are a curse of the human condition, the only question is which is less pernicious and the empirical results of several experiments suggests to me that some from of state regulated private capitalism is less pernicious than state capitalism. Pure state level capitalism has resulted dictatorships disguised as people’s democracies, too numerous to name here.
The problem is worse because this just is the nature of the human condition. Why do we participate in our own oppression? Self-oppression in the pursuit of happiness is the key driver in our society while all the time thinking we are free. We cannot overcome capitalism because we think in a capitalist terms, this is our framework for viewing life. In short, because we have to labor on to sustain life and labor itself is the oppressive burden. This much at least, seems to be ordained by nature. Capitalism grows out of the simple everyday necessity of work and production to sustain existence. I am not celebrating this relationship, but it just does seem that labor and work are simply welded to the human condition. For lack of a better term, we call this nexus capitalism but whenever work is required, order and hierarchy follow. A force to actually sweep aside this need for resources, work and labor (capitalism) exits only outside the world of human experience. Do we really think that once 'capitalism' is pushed aside, the need to create, work and manage the resources necessary to sustain life will be alleviated. This seems to me to be most reckless and naive of all hopes. The end of 'capitalism' has foretold many times and its still with us because we are still mired in the human condition of our making. With Fisher’s vision, the best we can do is to alter what work is, but it will still nonetheless, be work.
Another aspect of the problem is that modern capitalism has produced a person that Erich Fromm called the ‘marketing character’. I take this to mean the one whose job is connected to buying and selling. This person becomes adapted to the market economy by becoming detached from authentic emotions, truth and convictions, everything is transformed into a commodity, things and people; knowledge, feelings, skills, opinions. These are not selfish people, it is just that their immersion into the market place world of enumerated transactions creates thin relationships with other people and themselves, ones lacking in care. Fromm also identified the ‘productive character’ I take this to mean the one whose job includes care giving and teaching. For these people, Being is more important than having. This creates thick relationships of depth with other people and themselves. I have found that both are essential to the human story. The former help produce the surplus wealth necessary for the latter to exist. I do not celebrate this nexus, just acknowledge it; my heart with the latter.
The Reality is Us:
It is not so much an abstract thing called ‘capitalism’ or ‘socialism’ that is to blame. This is to miss the target. The answers are to be found where the solutions are to be found, with us and within us. It does no good to say that capitalism is rapacious but efficient or that socialism is benevolent but inefficient. Capitalism and socialism are just labels and abstractions from reality (realism). The reality is us. If we want more humane politics, more rational economics, and a more just social order then we must become more humane, rational and just people. This is the only way in which we can smooth the rough edges of any abstract systems of realism, e.g., rapacious capitalism or benevolent socialism. The method of political, economic or social organization is just beside the point. We can have any so called abstractly labeled ‘system’ or ‘model’, complete with all the trappings of critical theory and philosophical speculation that we desire, but the outcomes will be governed by who we are as human beings. But in fairness, this is a point of disagreement between the author and me. He would no doubt say that I am just dreaming, that is not long before the system takes over the people and deadens them; that the system has a life independent of the Individuals who comprise it and make its very existence and operations possible. “… not long before the grey petrification of power starts to subsume them.” However, to accept the Mark Fisher’s analysis, we must first believe that the ‘system’, on whatever principles it is organized, and with whatever procedures it operates, has an existence, even a consciousness, independent of the individuals who organized it and operate it. That is, there is a public that is more than the aggregation of individuals and their interests. I grew fatigued in reading how this opaque and amorphous entity called ‘capital’ was responsible for every social, economic, cultural and political ill that plagues the human race. This is a reductionist over simplification. Who is really doing the dreaming here?
Author’s Potential Rejoinder:
In any case, I am sure that Mark Fisher could rejoin me by claiming that I have just proved myself to be stuck in the logic of Capitalist Realism. I can see where I may have only smuggled capitalist values into my critique of capitalism. After all, late monopoly crony capitalism completely organizes society at such a fundamental level that it shapes our entire experience of being and thus our ability to see the possibility of a different experience of existence. The stereotypes and narratives of our current culture are needed in order to make the very thing that is unnatural, the extant system of crony capitalism, with its many and varied means of domination and cruelty, seem not just appealing, but also necessary and precisely what it is not: the natural order. That I have subordinated myself to a ‘reality’ that is no such thing; a reality that is capricious, amorphous, contingent and changeable at any moment with every new ‘reality’, with new values, each accepted as the true ‘reality’. Perhaps, but we have no choice but to be stuck in some sort of realism. For example, I can identify something we can call Educational Realism. An educational system that indoctrinates students by convincing them to put themselves onto the market as commodities, valued only as much as whatever skill their overpriced education has brainwashed them with while at the same time turning them into indentured servants owing to the fraudulent nature in which students must go into debt to obtain an education only useful for a lifetime of alienating labor to repay the debt. Perhaps the capricious, amorphous, contingent, changeable precarious nature of ‘reality’ just is the reality of the perpetually unstable and contingent human condition. I am not advocating capitalism as the solution the human condition, but I also recognize socialism is not a solution and that are no easy solution to be had, collective or individual. I am merely asking; when do we start to become realistic about reality instead of pining for alternatives to reality itself as believe the author finally implores?
An Alternative Realism:
The combining of global capitalism with authoritarian nationalism to a form a new realism (Zizek has pointed this out), that which I call Neo-Mercantilism Realism. Zizek has identified China is the prime example of this new model. As an alternative, it may not be preferable but is at least coherent if coherence is to be our highest value and if we must have an alternative to Capitalist Realism at any cost.
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Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative? Paperback – December 16, 2009
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PublisherZero Books
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Publication dateDecember 16, 2009
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Dimensions5.71 x 0.32 x 8.6 inches
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ISBN-101846943175
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ISBN-13978-1846943171
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Editorial Reviews
Review
Let's not beat around the bush: Fisher's compulsively readable book is simply the best diagnosis of our predicament that we have! Through examples from daily life and popular culture, but without sacrificing theoretical stringency, he provides a ruthless portrait of our ideological misery. Although the book is written from a radically Left perspective, Fisher offers no easy solutions. Capitalist Realism is a sobering call for patient theoretical and political work. It enables us to breathe freely in our sticky atmosphere. -- Slavoj Zizek
What happened to our future? Mark Fisher is a master cultural diagnostician, and in Capitalist Realism he surveys the symptoms of our current cultural malaise. We live in a world in which we have been told, again and again, that There Is No Alternative. The harsh demands of the 'just-in-time' marketplace have drained us of all hope and all belief. Living in an endless Eternal Now, we no longer seem able to imagine a future that might be different from the present. This book offers a brilliant analysis of the pervasive cynicism in which we seem to be mired, and even holds out the prospect of an antidote. -- Steven Shaviro, Author of Connected and Doom Patrols
What happened to our future? Mark Fisher is a master cultural diagnostician, and in Capitalist Realism he surveys the symptoms of our current cultural malaise. We live in a world in which we have been told, again and again, that There Is No Alternative. The harsh demands of the 'just-in-time' marketplace have drained us of all hope and all belief. Living in an endless Eternal Now, we no longer seem able to imagine a future that might be different from the present. This book offers a brilliant analysis of the pervasive cynicism in which we seem to be mired, and even holds out the prospect of an antidote. -- Steven Shaviro, Author of Connected and Doom Patrols
About the Author
Mark Fisher is highly respected both as a music writer and a theorist. He writes regularly for The Wire, frieze, New Statesman, and Sight & Sound. He is a Visiting Fellow at Goldsmiths, University Of London, and maintains one of the most successful weblogs on cultural theory, k-punk (http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org)
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Product details
- Publisher : Zero Books (December 16, 2009)
- Language : English
- Paperback : 81 pages
- ISBN-10 : 1846943175
- ISBN-13 : 978-1846943171
- Item Weight : 3.74 ounces
- Dimensions : 5.71 x 0.32 x 8.6 inches
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Reviewed in the United States on March 31, 2019
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5.0 out of 5 stars
We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings
Reviewed in the United States on August 3, 2019Verified Purchase
Finished Fisher's short but excellent analysis of capitalist realism – in essence a mode of cultural thinking that forms our society, through which the public is privatized and the citizen becomes a consumer. Corporate hierarchies are decentralized, forcing employees to become their own oppressors through self-reporting and self-evaluation via bureaucratic channels, which in turn gives birth to a form of "market Stalinism" that prioritizes appearance over accomplishment. The belief that nothing can change becomes self fulfilling and combined with a negative utopia (things aren't great, but least they aren't as bad as Country X) to limit what seems possible.
Fisher argues that environmental crisis, deteriorating mental health, and the failing ability of schools to impart meaningful education are eroding the ability of capitalist realism to control society, which when coupled with the financial crisis of 2008 that delegitimized neoliberalism, creates an ideological “year zero” requiring us to develop new theories of economic and societal organization informed by but not controlled by the past.
Capitalism belongs to a distinct historical period just as feudalism belonged to the Medieval Era and the palace economy belonged to the Ancient Era. It's still too early to know what comes next, and this uncertainty powers the anxiety of the present. I am reminded of Ursla Le Guin: “We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.”
Fisher argues that environmental crisis, deteriorating mental health, and the failing ability of schools to impart meaningful education are eroding the ability of capitalist realism to control society, which when coupled with the financial crisis of 2008 that delegitimized neoliberalism, creates an ideological “year zero” requiring us to develop new theories of economic and societal organization informed by but not controlled by the past.
Capitalism belongs to a distinct historical period just as feudalism belonged to the Medieval Era and the palace economy belonged to the Ancient Era. It's still too early to know what comes next, and this uncertainty powers the anxiety of the present. I am reminded of Ursla Le Guin: “We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.”
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Reviewed in the United States on October 8, 2019
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As someone who grew up in an earlier era, I missed out on “post-modernism”. Reading this book by Mark Fisher, out of the UK, I discovered that I hadn’t missed much, thankfully. Lots of obscure phraseology and handwringing, concluding with the unconvincing statement: “From a situation in which nothing can happen, suddenly anything is possible again.” The situation in question is before the financial crash of 2008, when leftists felt powerless against the neoliberal juggernaut of Thatcherism and Reaganism (capitalism portrayed as the only realistic alternative for the political economy), versus the breath of fresh air they felt after this most spectacular failure of deregulated free market capitalism. Yet the heart of the book, if you can jump over the word-thickets, is a powerful conservative critique of the amorality of “late-capitalism”.
However, the bulk of the book, though it draws on heavily on popular culture, especially dystopian movies, doesn’t offer much guidance on an economic or political way forward, let alone the obstacles that could be expected. Instead Fisher draws on his experiences in a stultifying educational bureaucracy under the sway of neoliberal ideology, while inveighing against the “permissive hedonism” of post-modern culture and philosophy. Under the latter, he says that it is OK to offer consumer or emotional guidance but not moral guidance: “To tell people how to lose weight, or to decorate their house, is acceptable; but to call for any kind of cultural improvement is to be oppressive and elitist” (p. 73). In particular we must “apprehend the real causes of our actions, …to set aside the ‘sad passions’ that intoxicate and entrance us”….”The reason focus groups and capitalist feedback systems fail, even when the generate commodities which are immensely popular, is that people do not know what they want”.
So, ironically, Fisher’s real contribution is to legitimize a conservative moral critique of the cultural left (post-modernism) from the heart of the economic left (Marxism). As a US progressive, who has also become disenchanted with the artificial seductions of late-capitalism, whether of consumerism or now of identity politics, I couldn’t agree more - that what we need most is a re-grounding in moral fundamentals. That is, to focus on the common good, on survival of human civilization itself in a world threatened by “ecological overshoot and collapse”. Unfortunately, panicked by the blatant immorality of Trumpism, the US left has circled the wagons ever more tightly around certain minorities to fend off his onslaught instead of working the economic fundamentals to open the circle to his base (the devastated white working class, suffering from “deaths of despair”, whose very lives give the lie to accusations of “white supremacy”). And now we have a way forward: The Green New Deal.
However, the bulk of the book, though it draws on heavily on popular culture, especially dystopian movies, doesn’t offer much guidance on an economic or political way forward, let alone the obstacles that could be expected. Instead Fisher draws on his experiences in a stultifying educational bureaucracy under the sway of neoliberal ideology, while inveighing against the “permissive hedonism” of post-modern culture and philosophy. Under the latter, he says that it is OK to offer consumer or emotional guidance but not moral guidance: “To tell people how to lose weight, or to decorate their house, is acceptable; but to call for any kind of cultural improvement is to be oppressive and elitist” (p. 73). In particular we must “apprehend the real causes of our actions, …to set aside the ‘sad passions’ that intoxicate and entrance us”….”The reason focus groups and capitalist feedback systems fail, even when the generate commodities which are immensely popular, is that people do not know what they want”.
So, ironically, Fisher’s real contribution is to legitimize a conservative moral critique of the cultural left (post-modernism) from the heart of the economic left (Marxism). As a US progressive, who has also become disenchanted with the artificial seductions of late-capitalism, whether of consumerism or now of identity politics, I couldn’t agree more - that what we need most is a re-grounding in moral fundamentals. That is, to focus on the common good, on survival of human civilization itself in a world threatened by “ecological overshoot and collapse”. Unfortunately, panicked by the blatant immorality of Trumpism, the US left has circled the wagons ever more tightly around certain minorities to fend off his onslaught instead of working the economic fundamentals to open the circle to his base (the devastated white working class, suffering from “deaths of despair”, whose very lives give the lie to accusations of “white supremacy”). And now we have a way forward: The Green New Deal.
16 people found this helpful
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Top reviews from other countries
Richard Sharpe
5.0 out of 5 stars
A wake up call for us all
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on April 10, 2020Verified Purchase
This book contains some of the most important, vibrant & hopeful ideas I've read in years. I am late to this party, as I'm have finished the book in 2020, 11 years after publication, but it is even more relevant & important, even than it was in 2009.
If you are interested in intelligent & humane thinking for the 21st Century, please read this book. It could change your life & the lives of all of us, living through late capitalism's death throes.
If you are interested in intelligent & humane thinking for the 21st Century, please read this book. It could change your life & the lives of all of us, living through late capitalism's death throes.
23 people found this helpful
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Mal Smith
1.0 out of 5 stars
No convincing arguments
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on February 5, 2020Verified Purchase
There might be an alternative to Capitalist Realism but there are no convincing arguments for such an alternative here. Spends much of his time launching ad hominem attacks on Blair and Brown making it look very dated. If this is a high-point of leftist thinking then it's not surprising the Tories have gone from strength to strength since it was published.
23 people found this helpful
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J Rose
5.0 out of 5 stars
There Will Be No Alternative
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on October 9, 2020Verified Purchase
This is a good book discussing an important issue, and it is a short one that tries very hard to contain a much larger body of work and a great many more ideas (i had this suggested to me as "three times longer than the page count").
It sits awkwardly at times on the line between being a polemic or an academic paper, and in doing so doesn't exactly offer enough for the autodidact OR the student as they might want. Movies and pop culture, as the only remaining common cultural point of reference for a great many, are used as the explanatory point of change and distinction between then and now, between periods of "capitalist reality" even as he depends heavily of postmodernists that the casual reader might not be familiar with.
The thesis of the book, that the Neoliberal societies we are a part of more closely resemble Stalinism and that the reasons are the same (unstable top down hierarchies in the form of huge businesses exert a bureaucratising force over society by the constant unreality of messaging, the hidden nature of the model self destructive work ethic, and the displacement and exchange of values, signs, and people) is well made, and made better by reference to mental health, education, and pop culture, each of which is bent toward this understanding of the atomised, isolated, individual helpless before market forces and market logic.
A fun read though! I managed to read it twice already, so perhaps my friend was right!
It sits awkwardly at times on the line between being a polemic or an academic paper, and in doing so doesn't exactly offer enough for the autodidact OR the student as they might want. Movies and pop culture, as the only remaining common cultural point of reference for a great many, are used as the explanatory point of change and distinction between then and now, between periods of "capitalist reality" even as he depends heavily of postmodernists that the casual reader might not be familiar with.
The thesis of the book, that the Neoliberal societies we are a part of more closely resemble Stalinism and that the reasons are the same (unstable top down hierarchies in the form of huge businesses exert a bureaucratising force over society by the constant unreality of messaging, the hidden nature of the model self destructive work ethic, and the displacement and exchange of values, signs, and people) is well made, and made better by reference to mental health, education, and pop culture, each of which is bent toward this understanding of the atomised, isolated, individual helpless before market forces and market logic.
A fun read though! I managed to read it twice already, so perhaps my friend was right!
10 people found this helpful
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Cant's Thorns
4.0 out of 5 stars
Is there no alternative?
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on March 4, 2021Verified Purchase
A short book with some challenging phrasing, but worth the effort. Fisher quotes Frederic Jameson's view that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism; he then spells out how neo-liberalism spread its tentacles to all corners of society and sketches out an outline of a counter view. He draws on his experience of working in Further Education in the UK, which I found especially interesting (and his description of what has befallen FE is still fresh over a decade after publication).
4 people found this helpful
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Amazon Customer
5.0 out of 5 stars
antidote to austerity
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on November 5, 2013Verified Purchase
Do you sometimes think that although capitalism and neo liberal policies stink there really is no alternative ? Are you resigned to the fact that 'the real world' seems to endorse/reflect economic imperatives that you find personally appalling both in terms of the naturalisation of conditions of chronic inequality and in the systematic destruction of the natural world ? Then this is the book for you - funny, intellectually stimulating and uncannily accurate about the nature of managerial and work place conditions in the twenty first century - not just the tired roar of a defunct Marxism this is a galvanising shot in the arm for the analysis of late capitalism. At once a diagnosis and a manifesto I recommend it as crucial reading in dark times. Reconnect with your inner socialist and get your head and your heart to work together for once.
36 people found this helpful
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Simulacra and Simulation (The Body, In Theory: Histories of Cultural Materialism)Paperback$17.95$17.95FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by AmazonGet it as soon as Sunday, Sep 5
Society Of The SpectacleGuy DEBORDPaperback$9.80$9.80FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by AmazonGet it as soon as Sunday, Sep 5
Difference and RepetitionGilles DeleuzePaperback$21.80$21.80FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by AmazonGet it as soon as Sunday, Sep 5
Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia (Penguin Classics)Paperback$17.99$17.99FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by AmazonGet it as soon as Sunday, Sep 5
Imperialism the Highest Stage of CapitalismVladimir Ilich LeninPaperback$5.45$5.45FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by AmazonGet it as soon as Sunday, Sep 5


