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The bible is irrelevant......


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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 26, 2012, 5:04:14 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 26, 2012, 5:05:40 AM PST
Vicki says:
Dear Juggernaut,

You said :"I find it very odd that when I mention the atrocities of the Bible you ignore or twist them like a spin-doctor to make them look good."

Actually, you cited a passage from Judges that I think you thought showed God telling His people to rape and commit genocide and I pointed out that you are wrong about that particular passage.
I'm surprised that you didn't refer, instead, to the Canaanite invasion, as most atheists do, instead of an incident of inter-tribal battles.

I also corrected your mistake of attributing a statement to Jesus that was actually made by John the Baptist.

Then, I responded to the bits of Matthew 10 that you qouted, I think in your effort to discredit Jesus, by providing the context that anyone would need in order to understand the meaning of what Jesus was saying.

This was hardly a rescue operation of the Bible from itself. I was just correcting the errors you had made.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 25, 2012, 8:37:37 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 25, 2012, 9:07:53 AM PST
Juggernaut says:
I find it very odd that when I mention the atrocities of the Bible you ignore or twist them like a spin-doctor to make them look good.Well I guess that with biblical errancy everything is possible as with religion.

Biblical apologists try to rescue the Bible from itself providing the illusion that a book that supports rape and genocide should matter.Conversely, its vengeful commands to genocide, its threats of eternal torture, its easy toleration of slavery and the oppression of women, are so defective that no claim to inspiration can make them
better and only corrupt morality by making believe that the bad is good.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 25, 2012, 6:06:42 AM PST
Vicki says:
Dear Juggernaut,

You said :"As for Christ who says that those that do not produce good fruit will be " chopped down and thrown into the fire" fire", "fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell" and has "come not to send peace, but a sword" and that`I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,your enemies will be right in your own household!" (Matthew 3:10,10:28,10:34-36), I don't see how he serves as a paradigm of love and liberation."

Just an item of correction, Matthew 3:10 ("chopped down and thrown into the fire") was said by the fiery preacher, John the Baptist, as a warning to the Saducees and Pharisees who came down to see him baptizing repentant sinners in the Jordan River.

In Matthew 10, we see Jesus talking to the 12 disciples who will be sent out to preach that the kingdom of heaven is near. Despite the fact that they will be healing the sick, raising the dead and driving out demons, as proclaim their message, they will come up against resistance- many believers will be flogged, arrested, betrayed by family members, and some (including many of the disciples, after Jesus ascends) will be put to death. Understandably, Jesus is warning them what to expect. Jesus isn't proclaiming some fuzzy hippie philosophy about love or offering a really good moral code for people to consider.

Why will people be doing this to the believers in Jesus? v. 22a-"All men will hate you because of me". That is what Truth does. It divides. It turns one family member against another. Some people don't like hearing the Truth and they react violently.

Then later in the chapter, Jesus gives this inspiring (IMO) message to the disciples- V.26-31
"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed or hidden that will not be made known.
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight;
what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

You said :"I don't see how he serves as a paradigm of love and liberation."

That might be (and I'm only guessing here) because you mistakenly believe that Jesus was just a teacher (if you believe that he existed at all) and that as a teacher, you find him lacking in many of your modern sensibilities.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 25, 2012, 5:30:51 AM PST
Vicki says:
Dear Juggernaut,

You said :"In fact god gave free reign to the Israelis do treat the Benjamites the way they wanted and all that killing and rape didn't matter to him."

God didn't give them "free reign". The men of Israel had to retreat after each of the first two battles outside of Gibeah, after suffering major losses. They were only successful in the third battle outside of Gibeah, which evidently went to their heads and led to their excess when they put the city of Gibeah to the sword.

God didn't tell them to go after the people of Jabesh Gilead.

You said :"As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace." (Deut. 20:10) Do you realize that this passage was about conducting war against the enemies of Israel for the Canaanite invasion? The incident in Judges happens years afterward, and it involves a fellow tribe of Israel, the Benjamites.

At any rate, the men of Israel did make an offer to the Benjamites concerning the matter that happened in Gibeah
From Judges 20:12-13
The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah, so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel." But the Benjamites would not liesten to their fellow Israelites.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 3:50:38 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 25, 2012, 6:44:54 AM PST
Juggernaut says:
Judges 20.17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fit for battle.

18 The Israelites went up to Bethel[b] and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us is to go up first to fight against the Benjamites?"

The Lord replied, "Judah shall go first."

19 The next morning the Israelites got up and pitched camp near Gibeah. 20 The Israelites went out to fight the Benjamites and took up battle positions against them at Gibeah. 21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the Israelites encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the Lord until evening, and they inquired of the Lord. They said, "Shall we go up again to fight against the Benjamites, our fellow Israelites?"
The Lord answered, "Go up against them."
24 Then the Israelites drew near to Benjamin the second day. 25 This time, when the Benjamites came out from Gibeah to oppose them, they cut down another eighteen thousand Israelites, all of them armed with swords.

26 Then all the Israelites, the whole army, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the Lord. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the Lord. 27 And the Israelites inquired of the Lord. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to fight against the Benjamites, our fellow Israelites, or not?"

The Lord responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."

o-o-o-o-o

In fact god gave free reign to the Israelis do treat the Benjamites the way they wanted and all that killing and rape didn't matter to him.

Also in Deuteronomy 20:10-14

10 "As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you."

o-o-o-o

Enough bloodshed.
Real nice guy.I think that even makes Hitler look benevolent.

As for Christ who says that those that do not produce good fruit will be " chopped down and thrown into the fire", "fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell" and has "come not to send peace, but a sword" and that`I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,your enemies will be right in your own household!" (Matthew 3:10,10:28,10:34-36), I don't see how he serves as a paradigm of love and liberation.

It amazes me how religious people can call the Bible a `good' or `moral' book. It surely is NOT nor is it divinely inspired.In fact many of its passages are repugnant to any standard of moral goodness.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 3:02:10 PM PST
Joe W says:
Vicki: God did not instruct the men of Israel and the Benjamites to raid Jabesh Gilead. They decided to do that on their own.

Joe: At no time did God even hint that they had done a bad thing. Not even a "don't do that because rape murdering non-combatants is a bad thing". The Bible does not even hint that this was against God's will. There are at least two other instances where this same behavior is repeated with the same response from God. One of them being where the Bible depicts Moses as speaking for God -- where he gets pi**ed off at his men for not killing non-combatants and taking the virgins for spoils of war. There is no reasonable interpretation of those passages where that behavior was considered to be bad behavior by God. At the very best, you could argue that he was apathetic, which is worse.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 12:00:08 PM PST
Vicki says:
Dear Juggernaut,

If you look at Judges 20, the men of Israel do consult God before going into battle on three occasions outside of the city of Gibeah, in Benjamite territory.
God's instructions for the first battle: "Judah shall go first".
God's instructions for the second battle: "Go up against them."
Both times, the men of Israel lost thousands of men.

After much weeping and sitting before the Lord, the men of Israel again inquired about whether they should go up against the Benjamites.
God's instruction: "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."

The men of Israel finally win, but it appears they were overcome by bloodlust, went into the city and put everyone to the sword, as well as other towns of Benjamin. I say "appears they were overcome", because by the beginning of chapter 21, the men of Israel are regretting their excess, and are grieving for their brothers, the Benjamites.

Although they had consulted the Lord previously before going into battle, they don't consult Him about the solution to the problem of an almost wiped out tribe of Israel (Benjamin). The move on Jabesh Gilead is something they decide to do on their own.

The last verse in Judges pretty much sums things up, I think.
"In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."

God did not instruct the men of Israel and the Benjamites to raid Jabesh Gilead. They decided to do that on their own.

I'm not sure that I would say that we Christians use the Bible "as a paradigm of love and liberation". I think that Jesus serves that function. But when we study the Bible, we do try to do it in-depth, rather than superficially.

Posted on Nov 24, 2012, 9:54:03 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 24, 2012, 9:56:09 AM PST
Juggernaut says:
Judges 21:10-24 NLT

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.)

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?What kind of God approves murder, rape, and slavery?To use the Bible as a paradigm of love and liberation is like using Nazi literature for the same purpose.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 8:29:11 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 24, 2012, 8:34:16 AM PST
Lugh says:
MDS says: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now we are going back a long time. In the Egyptian spiritual symbolic doctrine the soul of the deceased is required to pass through lakes of fire in the Duat, or underworld, on its way to reuniting with God. If the deceased has been evil, he is burned in the lakes of fire and then buried in Ått-Kek, which Budge tells us translates as "Valley of the shadow".

In the Egyptian Book of the Dead it says: "Let the deceased who is united with Osiris, advance into the valley of the shadow".The Egyptian Book of the Dead Although Revelation 20 doesn't mention the Valley of the Shadow, that we get in Psalm 23, it is still obviously alluding to the same ancient Egyptian ritual that Budge uncovered for us. The Book of Dead, was also the Book of Life and that does get a mention here. To understand more of this try The Egyptian Book of Life Translation.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 7:39:22 AM PST
Agapao says:
I would like to see you sidestep this one, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
" Revelation 20:15. The clock for you is ticking, time will tell how relevent you are. You'll remeber the words you have spoken, forever, and ever, and ever , and ever.............Forever is a long time.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 24, 2012, 1:38:55 AM PST
brunumb says:
Cheri: "There is, but you have to do a study on the passage about Pharoah to keep it in context. I shouldn't take you more than an hour or so to at least start understanding why God allowed these things to happen."

I didn't realise that reading the Bible could warp ones sense of morality so quickly.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 23, 2012, 10:32:22 PM PST
MDS says:
Not everything in the Bible is irrelevant.

PJA. Wanna bet?

Some is like seed, it grows into something relevent.

PJA. Like weeds....

If you wanted to know how to escape a lava lake of fire, it would be very relevant to know how.

PJA. Not being near a lava flow is the first step....


If you wanted to know about a life that never dies but continues forever, it might be relevant to know the answers.

PJA here we go.....

Notice, I didn't give you the answers.

PJA. Nope, but that was to be expected. You don't have any......

Sometimes you have to experience the things you consider irrelevant.

PJA. Like the natural world, Try experiencing that.....



Other times you must seek for relevancy. I'm not sure, I know where you stand. I guess, I don't care, your're not relevant for me to care.

PJA. You should take the meds before you post

Posted on Nov 23, 2012, 10:21:33 PM PST
Agapao says:
Not everything in the Bible is irrelevant. Some is like seed, it grows into something relevent. If you wanted to know how to escape a lava lake of fire, it would be very relevant to know how. If you wanted to know about a life that never dies but continues forever, it might be relevant to know the answers. Notice, I didn't give you the answers. Sometimes you have to experience the things you consider irrelevant. Other times you must seek for relevancy. I'm not sure, I know where you stand. I guess, I don't care, your're not relevant for me to care.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 23, 2012, 5:35:07 PM PST
Tinker says:
There is, but you have to do a study on the passage about Pharoah to keep it in context. I shouldn't take you more than an hour or so to at least start understanding why God allowed these things to happen.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 11:10:57 PM PST
brunumb says:
Good question. Why did God behave in such a brutal and immoral manner? I was hoping you would have a satisfactory answer, but the events don't seem to be consistent with one.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 7:58:27 PM PST
Tinker says:
Why?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 4:53:27 PM PST
Joe W says:
:-D

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 4:52:59 PM PST
Joe W says:
Oh my. Blackadder II was my favorite. "She has a tongue like an electric eel, and she likes the taste of a man's tonsils!" Suddenly, I am inspired as well.

PJA "But you're legless!!!.......Rubbish I haven't touched a drop"

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 3:39:14 PM PST
Joe W says:
Oh my. Blackadder II was my favorite. "She has a tongue like an electric eel, and she likes the taste of a man's tonsils!" Suddenly, I am inspired as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 3:32:32 PM PST
Joe W says:
That conversation was humorous sub-thread about peeing on bushes to change flower color and other goofy stuff. I thought your reply was just a sardonic continuation, or I would have replied. I appreciate your concern, but I am not diabetic, and what is more, I have not been drinking my urine.

PJA lol...ok. Wasn't sure, but bubba also suggested the same advise... Although your post did inspire me to watch the Blackadder episode where Blackadder, Baldrick and Percy along with Cpt Rum have to drink their urine to survive their trip to France.... One of the funniest ever....... Cheers Joe.....

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 3:24:37 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 22, 2012, 3:24:51 PM PST
Joe W says:
That conversation was humorous sub-thread about peeing on bushes to change flower color and other goofy stuff. I thought your reply was just a sardonic continuation, or I would have replied. I appreciate your concern, but I am not diabetic, and what is more, I have not been drinking my urine. :-)

Posted on Nov 22, 2012, 3:00:18 PM PST
JoeW. Sorry to change the subject. But this is a continuation from your post on the "Christianity/Science, which leads to the better life"
Your post mentioned something which I thought I might just offer advise in case you haven't revisited the thread. I would suggest you see a doctor as soon as possible. What you described might be an indication of a serious problem..I don't mean to be trivial but just from one poster to another.Take care....

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 1:07:34 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 22, 2012, 5:09:01 PM PST
brunumb says:
Lugh: "Which Pharaoh was that? "

Very good question. The word 'pharaoh' simply means 'king' and is not the name of the person in the story. Since the biblical authors were prone to naming all and sundry characters down to the most trivial, it is rather telling that this very significant individual, who apparently played a key role in matters, does not even get a name. Perhaps the authors were afraid that if they concocted a fable in a real setting they could easily be found out when someone simply checked the facts.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 1:02:42 PM PST
brunumb says:
"When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power' but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." Ex 4: 21

"Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs among them..." Ex 10:1

Then the omnipotent one engaged in a battle with a puny pharaoh (unnamed and apparently unknown by the author which is very strange considering his importance) using magic tricks, frogs, locusts, boils etc. ultimately reaching the tenth challenge where he kills all the first born of Egypt just to make his point. It was UNNECESSARY for God to do all of this but he made sure that it would happen that way, "for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants".

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2012, 1:00:29 PM PST
Joe W says:
Cheri: All I ask is that you listen to him for five minutes, if for no other reason than you are able to see not all preachers are like you see on TV or think they are.

What's five minutes out of your life?

Joe: All I ask is that you abandon the silly assumptions that I think that all preachers are like I see on TV, or that preaching style is of any relevance.

What's two false presumptions out of your life?
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